Strange you’re not saying its silly for Sylvannas for suggesting to Telanji to throw away her only military strength in an act of revenge that Sylvannas knew she would never win.
Again, if you’re going to point out bad writing, do it equally.
I have already stated in this thread that I didn’t like Sylvanas either.
This thread is about Baine. I was choosing to stay on topic.
It’s what you’re slowly alluding to when you begin your argument with something as lame as:
“Why didn’t he take actions earlier? Why did he wait until it would mostly benefit the Alliance to take actions? This is my issue.”
And also the typical: Why didn’t he do it for the Horde for the sake of the Horde?
You can’t be this ignorant bro. The faction war has grown out. No one gives a damn about your precious Horde and precious Alliance. It’s why people like Baine, Anduin, Thrall, Saurfang and Jaina are sick and tired of this sort of bickering:
“Oh noes…you say he did it for peace but he benefitted the Alliance. I don’t want it”.
It’s childish. Azeroth matters more than your petty faction tribalism.
So you feel those statements allude to
“hey, but our warchief isn’t Horde”?
I am failing to meet the connection on me wanting Baine to stand up sooner, with a statement I have never once said, about the faction of the warchief?
You know what is also childish?
Lying about others to promote a personal narrative in an argument.
You keep attributing things to me I never stated, I never implied, and keep going off on a tangent about a topic I never brought up.
If you are unable to communicate in a mature manner, I will just move on from you.
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But you’re being dishonest. It’s a badly written scene, not reflective on the characters, but the writers behind them.
Alright let me destroy you in one argument:
If you accept that Sylvanas is the Horde given that she was the leader, do you accept that the Horde was complicit and a partner in crime to whatever she did when she used the Horde and it’s resources?
Now do you understand why Baine suggested surrender? Because he understood this simple point.
So he was right at the funeral.
So what will it be? Do you accept these charges or do you resort to dodging and say “Hey but Sylvanas is one person don’t paint the Horde”.
Yep, just kinda confirmed you got nothing. As usual when it comes to your hatred of baine. shrugs nothing was lost
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The more I read his responses it just reads “But the Alliance benefitted and I don’t care, burn Azeroth, the Alliance should not benefit”.
He has some merit, however, Baine’s overall motivation is peace over prestige and glory. In Shadowlands, his motivation has been shattered three separate times by three different, stronger personalities that all called him weak.
He is being called weak purely because these entities do not understand the concept of peace.
Being peaceful isn’t weak. It’s being strong enough to withstand literally every blow and still have the courage to face the possibility that you can bring people together.
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But the written scenes are the characters.
This is what Baine did. Its canon now.
So my argument has been " I don’t like Baine because I didn’t like how he was written in BFA specifically". So yeah. I am blaming the writers. But that doesn’t mean that isn’t who Baine is now.
I am not arguing right/wrong of Baine’s suggestion. I am arguing the badly written aspect of pushing for surrender at the funeral. How that was a pretty poor move on his part. Not just the lack of empathy, but the lack of any sound strategy.
At a funeral, it is when people would be most emotional. No one is going to want to listen to the logic of diplomatic talks.
And I disagree that the only course of action was surrender.
You seem to be misunderstanding my stance. And I will accept I may not be as clear as I could be.
And you confirmed you don’t actually read what I say. Which is weird you would respond.
Except that isn’t my point.
Please. For the love of Azeroth. Actually pay attention to the words I type. Otherwise why should I respond?
You can just make up my side of the conversation for me, as you’ve done this entire thread.
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Bro the surrender suggested at the funeral was the right thing to do.
If you accept responsibility for your supreme leader’s mistakes, either accept it or don’t.
Don’t be stuck in two places.
That is not why I call him weak.
You seriously aren’t even trying.
You have a predetermined notion that anyone that doesn’t like Baine fits into a small box with predetermined traits. And you absolutely refuse to see it any other way.
“hey, I know your father was just killed by an invading force, but don’t you think we should surrender to that same invading force” is not the right thing to suggest at a funeral.
Is it possible to suggest diplomatic talks the day after a funeral? Or was that the only time in the entire world it could be suggested?
No I don’t. See your post which obviously exposes you again and AGAIN about your “Me point and grunt if Baine helps the Alliance me think he’s weak”.
Like I said the lore has moved beyond your petty faction tribalism of “OMG invading force”.
Why do you think they invaded genius? It was to help you take YOUR OWN city back.
This highlights how entrenched in your faction tribalism you are. The invading force had every right to burn your faction’s capital to the ground and instead they helped you retain your city.
Be grateful instead of being caught up in nonsense cycles of blind hatred.
Ive read what you have to say on the topic literally dozens of times, you say nothing new, and always default back to “If it helps the alliance in any way its bad” and “but the funeral” both of which are weak points that do not stand, because you just choose to view them in a negative light.
You just have an irrational hatred for Baine, thats all i see here, because hes the literal perfect embodiment of the good horde, and you seem to think thats a bad thing cause it in some small way ismt a bad thing for the alliance.
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Notice how he just says the same thing again and again?
“Invading force”. He still likes to pretend like the faction tribalism matters at this point in the lore.
Except no, that has not been my point.
I think your wires are crossed.
I am not talking about Org.
Except no.
Ok. I get it.
Yall lack middle school reading comprehension.
I will bow out.
You win.
I can’t take this blatant way you refuse to engage in this conversation like a mature adult would.
Instead you have done nothing but attempt to insult me from the start, and your petty jabs are just getting old.
Seriously.
Grow up.
Ciao.
You aren’t even able to show you even know what is being talked about at this point.
Goodbye.
Your “diplomatic missions at the funeral for the invading force” which is a nice summary of the same copypastas you put out don’t matter.
I’ll say it again: None of your petty faction tribalism matters anymore. There is no “surrender or benefit the Horde or Alliance”. Think bigger than your narrow faction pride. The lore has moved on.
Baine’s problem isn’t that he’s friendly with the alliance, or prefers peace.
In my opinion, the real problem is that Baine’s only used as a contrast for when the rest of the horde is going on a bad streak, holding him up as the token “good one” for others to either treat well or bad, depending on how the story wants those other characters to be seen. He’s not a character; he’s a moral barometer. Are you a bad guy? You kick the cow. Good guy? You pet him.
And I think that’s why you don’t really hear about him outside of faction conflicts. His purpose isn’t really to be good; it’s to be anti-bad-horde, which requires the horde being bad in the first place. What I think both Baine and the horde in general really need are moments where they can be shown as a positive force OUTSIDE of faction conflict, because they’re all sorely missing that kind of grounding to justify their existence in the story.
Having said that, talking about surrender during the funeral was an offensively bad writing decision. It should have come beforehand in private, both out of respect for the funeral and also to head off any chance of a vengeful speech being given as a eulogy. I figure it didn’t happen this way because of development constraints, but the portrayal was ugh.
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Personally, I wish Sylvanas had shot Baine at that table scene instead of the undead Tidecaller.
But I generally supported Sylvanas, so…yeah.
Baine is okay. The problem is that we don’t see him actually doing anything in furtherance of peace or the restoration of Azeroth or the building up of the Horde.
If we could see him in actions besides constantly yielding to the Alliance, people would like him better.