Years of we lose because of racials.
What exact buffs would give the ally the power they need to get on par with horde?
Bring back that 50/50 win rate.
11/10/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Neltherial
What exact buffs would give the ally the power they need to get on par with horde?
Buffs to their 7th legion rep.
11/10/2018 01:13 AMPosted by Yarrow11/09/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Jugajr...
True, but this is only for AV. IoC there is really no excuse, nor any 10/15 man
Here's the problem with the "git gud" argument with respect to 40 mans.
Blizzard evidently balances around a 50/50 win rate in practice, not a 50/50 win rate with perfect play. If the factions differ in their skill, balancing around a 50/50 win rate in practice means slanting the battlegrounds against the more skilled faction.
There's a lot of evidence that Alliance is the more skilled faction in 40v40s, given that all the major nerfs have hurt the Alliance. In IOC particularly within the last year, glaives were nerfed because Alliance was using them too effectively, and then even the center was nerfed because the Alliance was using that too effectively, while the airship was buffed because that was the one thing Horde tended to get. All the epic battleground adjustments have been in the direction of favoring Horde, which means they're adjusting for Alliance being more skilled.
Now possibly, Alliance is only more skilled in late night hours when Alliance tend to win, and the skill levels are more balanced in prime time when Horde tend to win. But prime time Alliance then have a legitimate gripe that the epic battlegrounds are skewed because of a late night Alliance skill advantage that doesn't apply to prime time Alliance.
I don't know that there's a good fix here, but there's a legitimate gripe.
Yea uh, i'm not seeing that in the BGs i play. Alliance seem to be ultra casuals stepping into the bg for the first time. I certainly don't feel or see them being "more skilled". I play anytime from 12 noon CST- 11pm CST btw.
11/10/2018 07:02 AMPosted by Tortuyo11/10/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Neltherial
What exact buffs would give the ally the power they need to get on par with horde?
Buffs to their 7th legion rep.
Dark iron dwarves can't be demon hunters, though. :(
We needed another thread of this exact same topic?
Just how inflated is your ego exactly?
Just how inflated is your ego exactly?
<span class="truncated">...</span>
True, but this is only for AV. IoC there is really no excuse, nor any 10/15 man
Here's the problem with the "git gud" argument with respect to 40 mans.
Blizzard evidently balances around a 50/50 win rate in practice, not a 50/50 win rate with perfect play. If the factions differ in their skill, balancing around a 50/50 win rate in practice means slanting the battlegrounds against the more skilled faction.
There's a lot of evidence that Alliance is the more skilled faction in 40v40s, given that all the major nerfs have hurt the Alliance. In IOC particularly within the last year, glaives were nerfed because Alliance was using them too effectively, and then even the center was nerfed because the Alliance was using that too effectively, while the airship was buffed because that was the one thing Horde tended to get. All the epic battleground adjustments have been in the direction of favoring Horde, which means they're adjusting for Alliance being more skilled.
Now possibly, Alliance is only more skilled in late night hours when Alliance tend to win, and the skill levels are more balanced in prime time when Horde tend to win. But prime time Alliance then have a legitimate gripe that the epic battlegrounds are skewed because of a late night Alliance skill advantage that doesn't apply to prime time Alliance.
I don't know that there's a good fix here, but there's a legitimate gripe.
O good lord. Not every change blizz makes is out to hurt the alliance. They made those changes because they were super unbalanced.
You have a map with 3 main capture points to bring down a door. At the time hangar did little to **** all. You were limited by the spawn rates of the bombs in the keep and the ship only had accessibility to the door you were trying to break like 1/3rd of the time and barely tickled.
Workshop , again the siege weaponry barely tickled the door. Workshop has had various buffs/nerfs over the years though.
Then you had docks , where the glaives could bring down the door in 2min flat and 1 shot players when aimed correctly.
You could bring down the door faster with 2 bladed peashooters than you could with a giant artillery armed airship, demolishers , a steam engine and spamming seaforium bombs. ( and was only 1 point vs capturing 2 )
And dont try and claim it was only because " alliance was better as using them" i saw both factions abuse docks all the time. People seem to forget that IoC used to be won my horde most of the time when it was new. They were fixed to make them more even , for BOTH factions. Docks used to be basically whoever capped it first wins, THAT'S why it was changed.
11/10/2018 07:10 AMPosted by MagnificentYea uh, i'm not seeing that in the BGs i play. Alliance seem to be ultra casuals stepping into the bg for the first time. I certainly don't feel or see them being "more skilled". I play anytime from 12 noon CST- 11pm CST btw.
Virtually no players are stepping into battlegrounds for the first time. What we have are experienced players playing alts. The characters may be stepping into battlegrounds for the first time, but characters are not players.
For example, I just went into battlegrounds to see what they were like, one normal and one epic. In the normal battleground, only 3 of the 10 starting Alliance players had over 100k health. When the Alliance side's average health is 90k and the Horde's is 130k, well, scaling takes care of part of that, but even the scaling just makes it like fighting two men down instead of fighting four men down. The superior Alliance skill in battlegrounds is not enough to compensate for that big a gear difference, let alone any map differences, especially since the small battlegrounds tend to emphasize gear over skill anyway.
In the epic battlegrounds, the gear differences are exacerbated by Horde lack of skill infecting the Alliance through mercenaries. Strategies that work for the Horde like capping and holding the Hangar in IOC and stacking the forward tower or bunker in AV simply don't work for the Alliance due to asymmetries in the map and mechanics. Alliance on our own would never even suggest these broken strategies, but unfortunately, mercs touting these strategies and convincing a few of the least skilled Alliance to follow them mean that we start with 10-15% fewer people available to do a good strategy.
In the epic I queued into, an Isle of Conquest, for example, 8 or 10 people followed a merc to Hangar initially. Naturally, we got slaughtered at mid. Since Hangar tends to be easily retaken after the initial cap, we didn't keep Hangar either, so the Hangar was useless too.
The skill of the Alliance players that didn't follow the merc was fine. A few of us grabbed the docks after we lost mid, and most went defense, where they killed demolishers as fast as the Horde killed glaives. That actually demonstrate\d superior skill on the part of Alliance since demolishers are harder to kill than glaives are. Horde did bring the Alliance gates down first since their win at mid had been so quick thanks to the merc's strategy, but even with just glaives and catapulted bomb runners, we got their gate down shortly after. If it hadn't been for the merc, we would have won, despite the Horde gear advantage, due to superior skill on the part of actual Alliance in the battle.
The situation is even worse in AV, where the merc strategy is to defend Stonehearth Bunker, putting our defense in an isolated location where they are useless for the important battleground objectives. I understand the mercs get this strategy from defending Iceblood Tower as Horde, a strategy which makes sense since Iceblood Tower is in a central location easily reinforcible if necessary and also useful for reserves to reinforce other locations in the critical Iceblood area. However, failure to recognize that Stonehearth Bunker has the opposite characteristics demonstrates low skill on the part of the Horde mercs - substantially lower skill than the average Alliance player.
11/10/2018 10:40 AMPosted by MuffindiverWe needed another thread of this exact same topic?
Just how inflated is your ego exactly?
Well when you get 2k rating in 1 out of the 4 brackets at the time nearly 10 years ago... bigger than it should be.
There is no time frame given for the battleground statistics that Ion reports.
I just don't play epic anymore, problem solved. The AV's I've won are cause horde make a mistake and with the little space we get we roll through them. Assuming ally take the opportunity which is always 50 / 50. When horde don't make mistakes which they're getting better at doing, guarantee loss. So horde win rates are over 90% now.
Ally is generally bad at pvp, as they don't play around there team and constantly suicide, and we do make bad decisions on attacking wrong objectives and everyone runs in like sheep and get slaughtered or abandon. But saying that the amount of coordination involved for alliance to have a high chance at winning is to a level of being on voice and calling out horde locations and constantly blocking them. Horde just sit at once place without comms and make sure no ally come through.
i haven't won an epic in over a month. alliance is awful in my battlegroup. if it wasnt true alliance wouldnt get bonuses for just joining lolololololol
Alliance don’t get the enlistment bonus for epics. Or at least the symbol for it isn’t there like for randoms.11/10/2018 02:05 PMPosted by Bloodymanei haven't won an epic in over a month. alliance is awful in my battlegroup. if it wasnt true alliance wouldnt get bonuses for just joining lolololololol
11/10/2018 02:05 PMPosted by Bloodymanei haven't won an epic in over a month. alliance is awful in my battlegroup. if it wasnt true alliance wouldnt get bonuses for just joining lolololololol
Battle groups... been years mate.
11/10/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Knaakamy AV record as a horde is 12 wins 9 losses
And mines a 23% winrate after doing heroic uldir and having 375 item lvl over 2 weeks ago.
No its not 50% or even close to 50%. I've done enough AVs to know Alliance is doing worse in AV than ever before.
The losses are also usually blowouts while the wins are close games. Despite what jughead thinks, when you are down 200 reinforcements, people are leaving the game so you are down players, you have no offence and no momentum and a MAP DISADVANTAGE yea the games over. You arent coming back from that. She seems to think me afking out of a sure loss shouldn't be counted in my games lost, absolute delusion on her part.
Once again, I rarely leave games. I leave when its extremely statistically unlikely Alliance could win, as I just explained why. Simple scorched earth AV stategy, nothing new, just a chokepoint advantage at IBGY thats been around for ages that favors Horde and never has been changed.
Once again theres 2 reactions to this.
#1. Denial. This comes from those like Jugs who post on Alliance alts but actually pvp on their Horde mains who have higher item lvls. They are disinformation agents. They want you to think AV is balanced so no changes are made to Alliance racials or the chokepoint at IBGY so Horde can maintain that unfair advantage.
2. Accepting theres a problem and looking at solutions to deal with it. This approach is almost never taken by Devs that favor Horde or by most players. Denial is much easier than admitting theres an imbalance and figuring out how to balance it.
11/10/2018 01:13 AMPosted by Yarrow<span class="truncated">...</span>
True, but this is only for AV. IoC there is really no excuse, nor any 10/15 man
Here's the problem with the "git gud" argument with respect to 40 mans.
Blizzard evidently balances around a 50/50 win rate in practice, not a 50/50 win rate with perfect play. If the factions differ in their skill, balancing around a 50/50 win rate in practice means slanting the battlegrounds against the more skilled faction.
There's a lot of evidence that Alliance is the more skilled faction in 40v40s, given that all the major nerfs have hurt the Alliance. In IOC particularly within the last year, glaives were nerfed because Alliance was using them too effectively, and then even the center was nerfed because the Alliance was using that too effectively, while the airship was buffed because that was the one thing Horde tended to get. All the epic battleground adjustments have been in the direction of favoring Horde, which means they're adjusting for Alliance being more skilled.
Now possibly, Alliance is only more skilled in late night hours when Alliance tend to win, and the skill levels are more balanced in prime time when Horde tend to win. But prime time Alliance then have a legitimate gripe that the epic battlegrounds are skewed because of a late night Alliance skill advantage that doesn't apply to prime time Alliance.
I don't know that there's a good fix here, but there's a legitimate gripe.
Just for the sake of discussion, I am still a little dubious that alliance wins more 40-mans during late night/early morning. Often I play during that time, and I don't notice any more wins than usual.. Don't get me wrong because I understand maybe you feel/see a difference, maybe others do as well. For me epic BGs seem about the same any time of day. - on average I will win 1 out of 3 or 4 played (with occasional bad streaks of 5+ losses in a row), and with more success when it comes to IoC (though I think the "design" of that BG has been off since Legion).
Oh, and I wanted to add in respect to my general agreement with Juga about alliance not having an excuse outside of AV, my agreement has to do with players not having an excuse for playing poorly, not playing objectives, having no clue about strategy, etc. I really do think too many players, horde and alliance, come into BGs expecting to be carried by the few who care about playing well.
@OP, my alliance AV win rate since level 120 is around 35%.
Oh yeah, and if anyone is whinging about this thread existing or whatever, get off of it. You don't have to read it. What's the point of posting on it "why another thread?" Because it's interesting, ya dingle-berries. Deal with it. Or maybe just ignore it. It's not rocket science.
Oh yeah, and if anyone is whinging about this thread existing or whatever, get off of it. You don't have to read it. What's the point of posting on it "why another thread?" Because it's interesting, ya dingle-berries. Deal with it. Or maybe just ignore it. It's not rocket science.
11/10/2018 01:49 PMPosted by BloodrusherAlly is generally bad at pvp, as they don't play around there team and constantly suicide, and we do make bad decisions on attacking wrong objectives and everyone runs in like sheep and get slaughtered or abandon. But saying that the amount of coordination involved for alliance to have a high chance at winning is to a level of being on voice and calling out horde locations and constantly blocking them. Horde just sit at once place without comms and make sure no ally come through.
Yarrow thinks the Allies are much more skilled though, and blames loses on Mercs and Ilvls. Which one is right?
11/10/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Magnificent11/10/2018 01:49 PMPosted by BloodrusherAlly is generally bad at pvp, as they don't play around there team and constantly suicide, and we do make bad decisions on attacking wrong objectives and everyone runs in like sheep and get slaughtered or abandon. But saying that the amount of coordination involved for alliance to have a high chance at winning is to a level of being on voice and calling out horde locations and constantly blocking them. Horde just sit at once place without comms and make sure no ally come through.
Yarrow thinks the Allies are much more skilled though, and blames loses on Mercs and Ilvls. Which one is right?
I don't think that is all (s)he thinks. I think most posters have some valid points. Gear power does matter. It's silly to claim otherwise. If one group has people who on average do 10-20% better damage or healing than the other group, that does give them an advantage when the objective is to overpower and push through the other group.
As for mercs, I really do not know. Sometimes I see people on alliance side calling out inane things and being very trolly, saying things like "For the horde!" during game play, how everyone should do a strat that doesn't work, etc. so it does make me think there are some people who are trolling and not actually interested in winning. Which anyone should think is odd, to say the least.
11/10/2018 05:17 PMPosted by Utterly11/10/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Magnificent...
Yarrow thinks the Allies are much more skilled though, and blames loses on Mercs and Ilvls. Which one is right?
I don't think that is all (s)he thinks.
It is basically what I think, with maybe the exception of the "much". More specifically, I think Alliance are much more skilled in the late night crowd, and Alliance and Horde are comparably skilled during prime time.
Nor do I think it's surprising that Alliance are more skilled on average. If you spend most of your time in battlegrounds and not in queue, you're necessarily going to be more on top of your game than if you spend half the time waiting in queue.