Yeah but I mean we can eliminate that as a factor because pug v pug AB/WSG are basically 50-50 games in classic.
So if pug v pug games are 50-50 in the other BGs which are reasonably close to mirror maps, the problem isn’t the players… it’s the AV 1.12 map in 2020 which obviously isn’t a mirror map.
And we all know this by now. Anybody who’s played an AV where alliance has tried to take IB GY and horde has defended it and recapped it, should understand what we’re talking about in this thread.
The reality is, horde didn’t defend like this in vanilla because queues were much shorter when CRBGs were introduced and we got 1.12. There’s no incentive to play a 30+ minute “scorched earth” game every single time unless your queues are unfathomably long (at least 1+ hour).
I have said this before and maintain that it is true. The comparison to the other maps isn’t comparable because Horde rankers still play AV and Alliance rankers left with premades. There is a difference in skill between the players actually queuing for AV.
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I am not some map denier here either. Look up my posts if you don’t believe me. I have been consistently advocating changes for months now. I simply don’t think the lack of rankers can be brushed off as a map issue. It isn’t. It is an HPH issue that even making changes to the map will not solve.
We have been over this and you are just flat out wrong. Almost all of them left the day those changes went live and pretending that there was a good solid couple of days where that wasn’t true is ignorant at best and completely disingenuous at worst. They left the Alliance hanging in AV.
That was just the premades, there were plenty of serious pvpers still queuing AV on alliance side after that, well until the map advantage was overly abused by horde.
It doesn’t matter whether there were some serious players remaining when you lost most of your best players and Horde didn’t. You have a thing with simple math regarding the cave. Well, this is simple math regarding how many good players are in a BG.
Yes and you are grossly over exagerrating how many and how quickly the decent alliance players left AV. Immediately after premading was broken the alliance in AV were the same alliance pugging WSG/AB where they do just fine.
No. I’m not. I literally watched my queue go up 30 minutes the day those changes went live. How many Alliance have to stop queuing for my queue to go up 30 minutes in a single day? Pretty sure that’s the equivalent of 6+ games worth of Alliance. That’s 240+ Alliance no longer queuing in just one battle group. And I think I am low balling this number.
The premades ending would explain part of why your queue went up. Players who wanted fast and easy wins for hph reasons left, but that doesn’t mean all serious PvPers left with them. That happened over time with the realization that there were better ways to earn honor than take a 30 minute+ loss game after game and definitely more fun ways to do it.
I am glad to see people advocating for change, but it’s been months and Blizzard has done nothing to address it. It seems clear to me that this is all we’re getting unfortunately.
So what you are saying is you have no idea how randomness and big numbers works…
It doesnt matter if a lot of hardcore alliance left, a VAST majority of pvpers especially on horde are casual meaning most/all of the horde team is going to be just as bad as most/all of the alliance team.
Also alliance tend to have more players who are fully raid geared doing lots of dmg who are gonna kill most alt/levelers.
If it was a player issue the winrate would be significantly higher because math.
They didn’t even need to actively police anything. A simple mechanism would do, like a stacking buff for the side that tends to lose more that evens out the win rate a bit.
In addition, if there’s an asymmetric map the ultimate balance for it is to randomize the starts. Then each faction gets to experience both sides of the map and any advantages/disadvantages it might have.
The AV map has always been problematic, and it still is on retail today in the handful of games that aren’t a bumrush for the bosses.
The IBT-TP-IBGY area throws non-premade Alliance for a loop more often than not, because their proximity leads them to try to capture all three at once, dividing defense and making it easy for the horde to take it all back. By comparison, Horde has a straight line that’s impossible to screw up, even with the worst groups: SHB → SHGY → IWB → SPGY → DB N/S → Aid Station. By the time Alliance are finally through with the IBT-TP-IBGY triangle, Horde have already capped SPGY and have one if not both DB bunkers ticking.
This is present in Classic too and just makes the horde cave situation that much worse.
I don’t know why Blizz didn’t just chop off the south half of the map, mirror the north half, swap out building assets, and call it a day 13/14 years ago. It would’ve been a far better move than the watering-down that AV saw in the latter half of Vanilla.
The premades left before anyone had any inkling that games would usually result in a 30 minute loss. That’s the part you aren’t grasping. They said they would leave and they did. Many of those players in the major premades were far and away your best players Alliance side. There were a ton of games against premades where I would see quite skilled plays out of individual players or small groups of players. Not coordination things, just really great play. The difference in quality of play within AV was dramatic and happened quickly. That’s not a “we figured out we couldn’t win” thing. That’s a “we figured out our HPH is better elsewhere” thing. Straight up, if you have to play 30 minutes and you have a 5 minute queue, you are wasting time in AV even with a win compared to what you can get in the other two BGs.
Apparently you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Horde always had more rankers to begin with. But hey, let’s do it in small numbers so you can stop pretending to be obtuse. If I have 500 great players on the alliance side and I have 500 great players on the Horde side and I have a pool of 2000 Alliance players and 3000 Horde players, 25% of my players Alliance side will be good meaning 10 out of 40. By contrast 16.7% of Horde players will be good meaning roughly 7 out of 40 Horde players will be good. Now lets say the Alliance population drops to roughly 400 (10 games which is pretty common now) and the number of great players drops to 40, now you have 4 out of 40 great players on the Alliance side that can swing team fights or coordinate others into winning strategies. Going with randomness of numbers, sure some games you might see 10-12 of those Alliance in the same game together and that might have a corresponding 3-4 great Horde players in that same game. Alliance stomps that game. But most games, you lose because 7 great players will out play the 4 great players the Alliance has available to them.
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And to be clear, I am being generous on the Alliance numbers and stingy on the Horde numbers in an effort to explain how this works. Because I don’t for one second believe there was anywhere close to 10% of the alliance being great players once the premades died. The pugs never had that many, so in what world do you think that losing all of the rankers to other BGs somehow translates to “randomness of numbers means our smaller crew of great players somehow should win against the other faction’s larger crew of great players?”
The premades leaving is not the issue though. Alliance pugs do fine against horde pugs in the other two BG’s so the general quality of alliance pugs is not worse than horde pugs. Now if decent alliance pugs are avoiding AV, well that’s a map issue.
You are clearly ignoring the fact that Horde’s best players are also joining premades in those BGs leaving less skilled Horde to pug. I have never claimed Horde has better pvpers inherently than what Alliance has. I have stated, repeatedly, that Horde’s best players are in AV and Alliance aren’t. AV requires all players to pug meaning all the great horde that join are in with the scrubs. AB / WSG doesn’t meaning the great Horde are doing premades while the rest of Horde is pugging. That alone evens the playing field pug vs. pug in a way that AV doesn’t.
Are you intentionally trying to sabotage your points? Because this is patently false just like the reverse is also patently false. There are exceptions, but by and large the people creating premades in an effort to rank are better than the people joining pugs. Most people pugging aren’t seriously ranking.
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Now, I am not saying that all rankers are better than all puggers. They aren’t. Some great players pug and some scrub players premade. But generally speaking, if you are a ranker in a premade group, you are probably better than a pug at pvp.
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Honestly, I am not even sure why I am bothering to respond to this though since that last statement was so laughably bad. If that is all you have left, you need to concede the point and move on. You have other points that are valid and good. This particular one isn’t.