I dont see why you are so desperate to defend this trash battleground.
I done deny that there are many problems that are player related as well as map issues.
But to deny everything to the extent that you and a few others do is pathetic. Desperate to keep those easy wins I guess.
I donât think theyâre listening. Itâs been explained how forcing the horde rez away from IBGY and away from the cave spawn works, but they still think itâs always a better choice to take SF, hold SHGY and brute force IBGY. What are the chances alliance are that much better to do that?
Iâve had wins that start with taking SF first. I have had far more losses doing that. And anyone who thinks rushing SF at the start of the match is a good move apparently hasnât noticed where that battle starts or what it does to alliance respawns.
I think horde just donât like the latest strat of getting wiped multiple times at SHGY because horde do not adapt. They keep zug zugging SHGY and capping SF.
As someone who has played alliance for the duration of classic, Iâm just glad to see alliance evolve and try different strats. A lot of us are sick and tired of being trapped behind IWB and scratching and clawing our way for a little honor off lieutenants and commanders. Burning towers and spending time on the southern half of the map is a refreshing change.
Cause I like to argue but many prefer to insult, itâs easier when you donât have good arguments
I donât premade and I spam solo queue WSG because I actually enjoy that bg. My overall win rate is almost 60% and I think itâs a fair guess to say at least 50% of the losses were against horde premades.
I also donât buy short queues and long games being the reason alliance willingly lose AV. Iâve been in many WSG matches that were 45 minutes to an hour long after a short queue. Alliance stuck around for those games and still won many of them. There seems to be something about having the hope and expectation of winning that motivates a lot of players.
I think this has been fixed or mitigated somehow and has been for a while. I only say this because a few more alliance teams are willing to push SF at the start of games and in the times we are wiped by horde we have been rezzing at SHGY.
Same has happened to me on multiple occasions, especially if one person called cubby as we are running out of the cave. The horde almost always ghost it or thereâs one level 53 barely paying attention because they are not accustomed to alliance actually going for it. But yeah either in chat or in tells Ill get a âwtf?â âwhy?â or "you âexpletiveâ. Good stuff.
Anyway, I still do as much AV as I can, be sure to say hi to me if we ever get in a game together - be fun to have someone else to kill LTs with.
The same phenomenon was witnessed in retail for years. Most horde blacklisted AV, horde queues for AV were like 30 seconds, alliance were significantly longer (30-45min or higher) and they won the majority of AV and even tryhardâd the darn place just like the horde do here in classic. I have like 100 memories of soft capping SHB when the alliance are getting ready to pull drek only to have 10 alliance show up to recap when they couldve just won the game but since they waited so long they wanted the perfect humiliation.
And the same thing was witnessed here horde side in classic. When queues were near instant for both it was a race by both teams, advantage alliance. Then the horde queues went up to 5-10 minutes and it was kill as many LTs as possible for honor before the game ends. When queues hit 20 minutes more horde started defending the choke or base. When they were 30 minutes plus the horde were like screw this and started turtling premades til they afkâd out.
I have zero doubt that if the alliance had 30 min queues for AV it would be a different scenario. Its not the only reason why the alliance fail but its a big one for sure.
The only reason alliance would be able to win on the map is if thereâs a vast player quality difference in favor of alliance, which is more probable now than in the past. It should be more likely than it was 3 or 4 months ago.
I doubt the best (or at least best geared/most experienced) horde players are even waiting for AVs to pop when thereâs way less time on WSG/AB queues and far less premades now.
If horde isnât defending SF GY against rogues, that means itâs a bad horde team.
If horde doesnât know how to appropriately defend IB GY while setting up the IWB choke⌠that means itâs a bad horde team.
There is no alliance strategy that should overcome an equal match up because horde always has the more optimal and more forgiving strategy.
It plain as day that as soon as alliance loses IB GY it should be game over in an equal match up.
It would not surprise me at all if alliance has a better quality of player right now with less horde former rankers playing the map.
And this shows how clueless you are. If Alliance are playing cubby strat itâs necessary for Horde to have SF. Why would you take SF if cubby is called?
Either youâre not a team player or youâre just trolling the Alliance.
Itâs irrelevant now cause the meta has changed : alliances think they will lose so they just defend SHGY. Horde can have lowbies and bad players and still win. Thatâs the meta as of today.
Well same for alliance. When they hard cap IBGY itâs almost game over
If the alliance lose 90 whatever percent of games that includes cubbyâs so who really cares whatâs called. The kill ratio alerts me to whether we have a chance, not what strat is called.
However, if the bg leader calls it early in the cave, marks his or herself and shows some leadership then I will follow until its clear to me that I need to be hitting up some druids and rogues for LT kills. Usually this is determined by a) are we back capping SHB and b) are we departing for IBGY as soon as SF caps and leaving a few behind on defense (edit: this is what I usually do for cubby games, defend SHGY). If not, then all bets are off and Im going to get honor and if I cant do that then I hope that the horde caps a mine so I have mobs to pickpocket for blinding powder.
Why do I do it? Well, first off screw the horde thats why. Second, I aint got nothing to lose but the BG and thats already a given so who cares if the horde need an extra 5 minutes to get SF. Third, its the only real winning play and if Im alone on that then so be it.
The horde are better at AV. Dont know how anyone can really argue with a 95% win rate. They dont need to be geniuses because while AV is a bit more strategically oriented it doesnt require a genius to figure it out. It just means if the alliance send 30 south then you are probably going to need 20-30 to combat them and wouldnt you know it thats what they do - run their team to where it needs to be.
Yet for some magical reason horde canât apply that same higher skill level in the other two BGâs.
Who is saying that? Even folks like Zyrius agree that the better alliance are playing AB/WSG rather than AV. (while simultaneously scoffing at horde posters who state the same thing).
âBetterâ? Not necessarily. âMore committed to winningâ? Yes, without question. The reasons having been outlaid a multitude of times in this and all the other threads.
I mean, look at this. He repeats it ad nauseum, while having clearly stated that alliance that care about trying are not playing AV.
Right the alliance who are good at pvp see the map imbalance and donât want to play on an imbalanced map.
Weird huh that people who actually want to win avoid a map with major disadvantages.
I dont know why you keep retreating to this. That argument is deeply flawed and its perspective is incredibly naive. Not too mention irrelevant (and thus fallacious) since the topic is AV.
Maybe the map criers will be more willing to understand it this way.
Horde are not better at AV, they are more willing to drop what they were doing (farming kills, pushing north, exc) to reply to alliance players. When horde get a soft cap on something alliance tend to give up, when alliance get a soft cap on something horde tend to get grit and go do what needs to be done. By why? Que times vs game duration is a heavy contributor for this.
When was the last time alliance were winning and you saw them send 20+ people back to stop a soft cap on towers/GY? Even back in the premade era they didnât do this much because they wanted fast games, que time vs game duration. As the que times got longer for horde we were more willing to do this. And it was dubbed âscorched earthâ
Will going and backcapping make the game take 15+ minutes longer, but keep our win chances high? Welp we are back capping then! 15 min is still nothing compared to that 3 hour que time!
Horde win because even when ahead we try to not give an inch of leverage to alliance even if it makes the game take longer. Because our que times make it worth it.
Alliance have won games from using the bridge, death trapping SPGY, and meat grinding the horde. This adds time onto the game but increases win chance. And before you say âthe alliance were clearly better than horde that game!â No they were not, they had gotten pushed back to SPGY because they horde did better. But then the alliance used their map advantages to overturn the tide of battle to win. Why do most alliance teams not even try to do this? They give up because trying to win at that point would be âa waste of timeâ when it looks like winning will take 2+ hours, vs the average ~30 min loss.
The alliance lose AV so much because of the self fulfilling prophecy mindset that causes them to give up way to quickly before the game is near over.
Hmm⌠the same group of players having vastly different win rates on the one BG that is not balanced vs the two that are is extremely relevant to the claim horde magically get better in AV.
Read the post right above this response.
Then scroll up and see his schtick about AB/WSG. He literally plays both sides of the fence. It is not tribalism, and as a reminder, I played alliance as well as horde in vanilla, and know full well the affect queue ratios have on effort and win/losses.
Except it isnât pure tribalism. Most people would like some changes to the map. There is even a fairly good consensus on what could be changed easily that would be effective. The only disagreement is on the percent blame to give the map versus the players for the current win loss imbalance. I have pretty consistently said it is a 60 40 map. Thatâs not fun. That would be thrown out in any other game as trash or tweaked until it wasnât trash. But blizzard refuses to do anything about it. And thatâs sad.
The issue some people either donât understand how that will cause a chain reaction that gets worse and worse or think alliance should just suck it up and play on a imbalanced map when horde are abusing it.