AV Cave Rez situation

[Redheadchild-kul-tiras (Redheadchild)]

Except you yourself have admitted that the alliance that que for AV are not the same type of players that que the other BGs.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Redheadchild-kul-tiras

Except you yourself have admitted that the alliance that que for AV are not the same typ e of players that que the other BGs.

Right now go figure out what cause and effect means, and how that impacts why the same alliance that do just fine in WSG/AB aren’t queueing for AV normally.

[Gnowayjose-old-blanchy]

Holy cats, this thread is amazing!

Puts Cutebirb’s posts to shame!

[Redheadchild-kul-tiras (Redheadchild)]

If you want to look at cause and effect you have to first look at the factors that resulted in the causes and effects.

As an example water can boil at 212°F, yet the boil point can be changed with a few factors. Elevation, use of tools to cause the boil (pressure cooker, vs vacuum chamber) exc.

But you want to ignore all factors of AV except the map and claim everything is the maps fault. That’s the narrative me, and others are refusing to buy because we recognize there is more than just one factor contributing to that AV winrate. You on the other hand want to oversimplify it and remove every possible contributing factor except the map.

There is a cause and effect for AV winrates but it is not “map cause=-48% win rate for alliance effect.”. It’s more like “map cause -10% win rate for alliance” “leachers/afk cause -15% win rate for alliance”, “que time per game duration cause -15% win rate for alliance”, exc.

Those numbers are not exact but it’s an example, you would have us believe the map.

The map is not this mega factor your trying to make it out to be.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Redheadchild-kul-tiras

If you want to look at cause and effect you have to first look at the factors that resulted in the causes and effects.

As an example water can boil at 212°F, yet the boil point can be changed with a few factors. Elevation, use of tools to cause the boil (pressure cooker, vs vacuum chamber) exc.

But you want to ignore all factors of AV except the map and claim everything is the maps fault. That’s the narrative me, and others are refusing to buy because we recognize there is more than just one factor contributing to that AV winrate. You on the other hand want to oversimplify it and remove every possible contributing factor except the map.

There is a cause and effect for AV winrates but it is not “map cause=-48% win rate for alliance effect.”. It’s more like “map cause -10% win rate for alliance” “leachers/afk cause -15% win rate for alliance”, “que time per game duration cause -15% win rate for alliance”, exc.

Those numbers are not exact but it’s an example, you would have us believe the map.

The map is n ot this mega factor your trying to make it out to be.

Sorry too busy beating horde in AB to read this, guess queue times alone don’t magically make alliance suck on a balanced map.

[Redheadchild-kul-tiras (Redheadchild)]

Your looking at alliance que times and ignoring game duration.

It’s not que times alone, the game duration matters.

And your also ignoring horde que times vs game duration.

Horde que times for AB is about 20 min, horde que times for AV is almost 3 hours. This combined with possible game duration of AB not being nearly as long as AV can go for and you start to understand why horde don’t try as hard in AB vs AV. 20 min wait with maybe 20 min game vs 3 hour wait for a game that can (if alliance don’t give up in the first 20 minutes) last for hours.

Your right that que times alone don’t do much, it’s que time vs game duration per faction that has an impact.

I farm while waiting on AV ques. Which means I have consumables ready for every AV, because I had almost 3 hours to farm, take a break, and come back refreshed and ready to tryhard at AV because I spent far to long waiting to even get in.

[Soymonmilk-warsong]

ITT: Horde players patting themselves on the back for winning a bg that heavily favors them.

[Redheadchild-kul-tiras (Redheadchild)]

If that’s what you think we are doing you didn’t read the thread.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Soymonmilk-warsong

ITT: Horde players patting themselves on the back for winning a bg that heavily favors them.

Then acting confused when they can’t do the same in WSG/AB.

It’s quite amusing.

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

@Redheadchild-kul-tiras

If that’s what you think we are doing you didn’t read the thread.

Dude, it’s probably just another drinkandblink alt.

[Drinknblinks-area-52]

I heard my name!

Naw I’m in shadowlands.

Threads all yours!

[Fayld-westfall]

Orc Mage. That just seems wrong lol.

[Drinknblinks-area-52]

I love the racial!

[Provengreil-old-blanchy]

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

But the reality and our conclusions is : alliances don’t care. Alliances want rep and short games to requeue in 2 minutes and certainly don’t want long games where alliances would have to work hard and long.

Alliance motivation is a textbook death spiral. The allies start out with 2 primary factors to kick it off:

1. Fast Queues. Allies have, straight from 16 years ago, always had fewer PVPers. Horde became known very quickly as the go-to PVP faction. Back in the small servers of OG WOW it mattered less, as fewer other Horde were crowding the queue, but now that Horde AV queuers outnumber alliance by, probably, 3 or 4 to 1 all Allies get near instant queues.

2. Map imbalance. Judging by estimated win rates on AV weekends when the Allies defy the motivation issues, seems like it accounts for a 65-35 win rate split at worst, like closer to just over 55-45.

So how does this turn into a death spiral? Map imbalance makes wins take longer than losses once the Horde stops playing along with rush tactics. Alliance get faster queues and those still trying to win see themselves falling in brackets, because many alliance can pull enough honor from losses to beat a long win. Since they want the ranks, they give up and farm honor. Loop starts here. AFKers, bots, and rep grinders not fighting make games tougher to carry. More people give up. Games get harder to carry. More people give up. And so on until enough people queue without really having their heart in it that any given match will be statistically impossible even if there wasn’t a map imbalance.

The release of AB made it even worse, as that became the go to spot for ranking, further distilling the population of AV into people who aren’t trying and won’t be roused.

Anyone who didn’t see this coming from pre-release just wasn’t thinking about it, tbh. AV was always going to go this way.

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

@Provengreil-old-blanchy

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

But the reality and our conclusions is : alliances don’t care. Alliances want rep and short games to requeue in 2 minutes and certainly don’t want long games where alliances would have to work hard and long.

Alliance motivation is a textbook death spiral. The allies start out with 2 primary factors to kick it off:

1. Fast Queues. Allies have, straight from 16 years ago, always had fewer PVPers. Horde became known very quickly as the go-to PVP faction. Back in the small servers of OG WOW it mattered less, as fewer other Horde were crowding the queue, but now that Horde AV queuers outnumber alliance by, probably, 3 or 4 to 1 all Allies get near instant queues.

2. Map imbalance. Judging by estimated win rates on AV weekends when the Allies defy the motivation issues, seems like it accounts for a 65-35 win rate split at worst, like closer to just over 55-45.

So how does this turn into a death spiral? Map imbalance makes wins take longer than losses once the Horde stops playing along with rush tactics. Alliance get faster queues and those still trying to win see themselves falling in brackets, because many alliance can pull enough honor from losses to beat a long win. Since they want the ranks, they give up and farm honor. Loop starts here. AFKers, bots, and rep grinders not fighting make games tougher to carry. More people give up. Games get harder to carry. More people give up. And s oon until enough people queue without really having their heart in it that any given match will be statistically impossible even if there wasn’t a map imbalance.

The release of AB made it even worse, as that became the go to spot for ranking, further distilling the population of AV into people who aren’t trying and won’t be roused.

Anyone who didn’t see this coming from pre-release just wasn’t thinking about it, tbh. AV was always going to go this way.

Which leads me to wonder if in retail, Korraks revenge has those same issues.

[Ziryus-doomhammer (Ziryus)]

@Brokenwind-malganis

@Provengreil-old-blanchy

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

But the reality and our conclusions is : alliances don’t care. Alliances want rep and short games to requeue in 2 minutes and certainly don’t want long games where alliances would have to work hard and long.

Alliance motivation is a textbook death spiral. The allies start out with 2 primary factors to kick it off:

1. Fast Queues. Allies have, straight from 16 years ago, always had fewer PVPers. Horde became known very quickly as the go-to PVP faction. Back in the small servers of OG WOW it mattered less, as fewer other Horde were crowding the queue, but now that Horde AV queuers outnumber alliance by, probably, 3 or 4 to 1 all Allies get near instant queues.

2. Map imbalance. Judging by estimated win rates on AV weekends when the Allies defy the motivation issues, seems like it accounts for a 65-35 win rate split at worst, like closer to just over 55-45.

So how does this turn into a death spiral? Map imbalance makes wins take longer than losses once the Horde stops playing along with rush tactics. Alliance get faster queues and those still trying to win see themselves falling in brackets, because many alliance can pull enough honor from losses to beat a long win. Since they want the ranks, they give up and farm honor. Loop starts here. AFKers, bots, and rep grinders not fighting make games tougher to carry. More people give up. Games get harder to carry. More people give up. And s oon until enough people queue without really having their heart in it that any given match will be statistically impossible even if there wasn’t a map imbalance.

The release of AB made it even worse, as that became the go to spot for ranking, further distilling the population of AV into people who aren’t trying and won’t be roused.

Anyone who didn’t see this coming from pre-release just wasn’t thinking about it, tbh. AV was always going to go this way.

Which leads me to wonder if in retail, Korraks revenge has those same issues.

It did both zerging and hurry up and lose were alive and well in korraks revenge.

[Elfblade-mankrik]

@Provengreil-old-blanchy

AV was always going to go this way.

Others and myself have been saying this all along. Once the meta and cross realm bgs (+ 1.12 AV) said this wasnt going to be a cool stroll down memory lane you could pretty much predict how it was all gonna shake out so I wasnt surprised one bit. If you paid attention when phase 2 came in you had it all in front of you right there.

Alliance rankers even told us it was going to end up this way when they were threatening to boycott on account of horde turtling and the (at the time) potential removal of AV premades.

Which is why I cant bring myself to point to a map imbalance being the root of it all or even a real factor. No one said squat about map imbalances when the alliance were glitching drek for 7 minute wins. It was all good.

[Jeromagnus-darkspear]

Provengreil, you just rez this thread.

A. From what I heard so far, hordes were less popular in Vanilla, so they had the fast queues, not alliance. Horde became the favorite faction later, probably at BC because of blood elves and the fact best pvpers chose horde side.

B. Your map imbalances counting for 65-35 win rate comes pretty late in the discussion and pretty randomly with all due respect. Up to now, (credible) people agree there is map imbalances but it’s one reason among a lot more. Here are the reasons summarized from this thread :

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

Now why alliance lose that much :

1. All[ia]nce rankers all left in February because they could not premade AV anymore. Alliance lost all their sweaty players at the same so they were traumatized;
2. Alliance rankers killed their bg by dodging queues and leaving alliance pugs to lose;
3. Remaining alliances mostly focus reputation farming and gave up winning;
4. Some minor map imbalances;
5. Alliance have instant queues so they don’t care too much;
6. Hordes have to wait 1 hour + so they give everything they can to win.

But I agree it caused a vicious circle (or death spiral like you said). Actually, it’s probably why alliance wins more during AV week end. They know they can do more honor, even if they lose. Of course, winning will give more but it’s still interesting to queue av for alliance during av week ends for honor.

Honestly, I didn’t feel any difference with the release of AB.

[Brokenwind-malganis (Brokenwind)]

and yet we never hear about a problem with alliance winning too few, or sCoRcHeD eArF in korraks revenge.

[Elfblade-mankrik]

@Jeromagnus-darkspear

A. From what I heard so far, hordes where less popular in Vanilla, so they had the fast queues, not alliance. Horde became the favorite faction later, probably at BC because of blood elfs and the fact best pvpers chose horde side.

Queue times varied by server as BGs weren’t X realm. But generally speaking, yes, there were way more alliance than horde - cuz everybody wanted to be the good guys and the word on the street out of beta was the alliance were way more fleshed out as a faction.