Post 3570:
Post 3546
Alliance cave act as an in between too, being mid of alliance territory (Aid station and SPGY). It’s just that alliance territory is not straightforward, it goes to the west at SPGY.
Whats closer to IBGY, horde cave or SPGY?
Not sure in what world you expect Alliance to hold SHGY or FWGY while soft capping IBGY.
If horde can lose IBGY without fear, why do alliance need to defend SHGY?
You know the answer to this already.
Cave run for horde back to IBGY is still 3x faster than Alliance from SPGY back to IBGY to reinforce the Alliance that are at IBGY waiting for it to hard cap.
Youre asking Alliance to hold a graveyard while also contesting their first objective, meanwhile horde dont have to do that, they can just all out offense because their cave rez is there.
Alliance defending SPGY and when spgy is soft capped by horde they dont rez at Aid Station, they rez away from their next defensive point at their cave.
Alliance have 2 options now"
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Send All alliance to defend aid station or retake spgy, but you cant win this way, infact they are on the wrong side to defend the bridge.
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Try to sneak south from the cave after SPGY is soft capped since now they rez at their cave, so they will go try and get literally anything from the map at this point.
Option 1 will always still be a loss as you cant win defending Vann.
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How is that relevant ? You’re not comparing equal things. To show an inequity you should ask what’s closer between Horde cave ==> IBGY or SPGY ==> SHGY. 40 seconds vs 45 seconds. Or what’s closer between Horde cave ==>SHGY or SPGY ==> IBGY. Last one I don’t know, I didn’t time it yet.
It’s as much as difficult for horde to hold IBGY and soft capping SHGY.
Horde cannot lose IBGY without fear. In fact if IBGY is hard capped, horde has to split forces and will usually lose a lot of honor.
Yeah and it’s normal. Just as the mirrored alliance SPGY run to defend SHGY will be faster than horde cave ==> SHGY
Horde do that all the time : holding IBGY while also contesting SHGY. If you read my post above you know the running back time is pretty equal.
Ok well you take your insignia and you recall only one time.
Well at this point alliance is losing anyway, except if it was a race so not sure what your point is.
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If you told him the earth was round he would argue it is flat, dont waste your time, it’s been explained many times even members of their own faction agree but these few will argue otherwise till the end of time.
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I could say the same to you. If you don’t have any arguments maybe you should just not answering. I gave you many examples with timers. You give nothing.
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Horde don’t do this, they leave IBGY undefended and all attack SHGY. Once SHGY is soft capped they go back with 15-20 to retake IBGY.
And it is relevant, it’s literally who can reinforce their first objective. How do you not understand that??
Horde are rezing at their cave while trying to retake IBGY, so why would you not use that as a basis of time to target??
Alliance trade SHGY for Ibgy and horde trade IBGY for SHGY, the only difference is that hordes cave rez is in a massively better position to help.
Even in your scenario you’re wrong, it should be horde reinforcing SHGY from FWGY NOT their cave which is what it is.
When alliance die at IBGY defending the capture of it they rez at SPGY. Horde should be equal distance away. They aren’t because of their cave.
The right measurement should be FWGY to SHGY for horde and SPGY to IBGY for Alliance. Since horde have their cave in the best spot in the game it’s not like that. How do you not see this?
Alliance either go and try to retake SHGY from SPGY 10 at a time or bypass it to try and reinforce IBGY. For it to be fair horde would need to Rez at FWGY.
Let me ask you this, assuming the map is owned by horde and alliance equally, they both control 50/50 of it.
Which faction loses the WHOLE map by losing their first Graveyard?
Do alliance lose more of thier 50% of the map when they lose SHGY or do horde lose more of the map when they lose IBGY in relation to where they now Rez??
To you that’s fine I bet, it’s ok for horde to lose IBGY and still own almost their 50% still, meanwhile alliance lose SHGY and they now only own 10% of the map.
Indeed. It’s a different strategy. Nothing prevent alliance to do the same : pushing back horde stack (harder) or try send a squad to IBGY (usually what alliance does).
Sorry to say but it seems your mixing stuff. The irrelevancy is that your not comparing a mirror effect. It’s normal that SPGY is not as close to IBGY than horde cave. SPGY is two graveyards away from IBGY. Did you mean SHGY ? Otherwise it doesn’t make sense.
If you want to point out that horde cave ==> IBGY is unequal you have to take into consideration the equivalent alliance side : SPGY ==> SHGY.
horde cave ==> IBGY 40 seconds
SPGY ==> SHGY 45 seconds
40 seconds vs 45 seconds seems pretty equal. Far from the 28 seconds the video and people in this thread are pretending.
I disagree that horde cave is in a massively better position. The only advantage is 20 rez cycle cave vs 10 rez cycle at SHGY. Thing is more than 10 rez cycle almost never happens. Especially if it’s not a 40 alliance push vs a 40 hordes defense at IBGY.
See above. It’s 40 seconds for horde and 45 seconds for alliance. It seems longer for alliance because alliances cover more distance but at the end of the day, it’s almost the same time.
If you time it, you will see that FWGY is closer to IBGY than horde cave by a few seconds. It sounds weird but at FWGY you can mount up while in cave you have to run outside for 12 seconds before mounting. So contrary to what you think, even if the cave wasn’t there, horde could come faster to IBGY from FWGY.
It’s an objective battleground, the % of the map is not relevant. Yes when alliance loses SHGY you don’t own much on a south-north territory perspective. But alliance still has 2 graveyards and a cave. So on a strategic point of view, roughly the same power as horde in a mirror situation. Also, don’t forget if your north/south territory seems to shrink, you still have longer east-west territory.
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Are you referring to those games where you belittle the team in chat for being useless?
Well there isnt just one but my preference is holding SHGY and then capping and holding SF and then going objective by objective one at a time (Galv, IBT, IBGY, TP etc) while doing things like back capping bunkers.
Once you get some kind of a lead, like burning their 2 mid towers ahead of them burning your 2 mid bunkers then you can relax your attachment to either SF or SHGY and push further south but you still need some kind of a defense to make sure they cant just ride north and conquer it with only NPCs to get by. I like SP for this but the bridge works just as well.
Likewise, the alliance dont become a team committed to winning a 75 minute game against the horde because they queued AV.
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What prevents alliance doing the same is the cave rez horde have when retaking IBGY.
But then you would have to understand 20 is a greater number than 10 and the terrain involved getting from SPGY to SHGY vs the cave to IBGY.
Oh Ziyrus again, so much bad faith and petty. You must feel pretty insecure to need to insult me to win an argument.
And you, do you understand that being able to reach more than 10 rez doesn’t matter if you actually never use it ? But keep repeating your arguments like I never answered to it.
And what about the terrain. What is your new theory about it. Please elaborate. If you can (I know it’s petty but you started it).
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If horde were playing the zerg meta and not defending this thread wouldn’t exist.
No new theory, it’s well known to anyone who understand terrain why SPGY -> SHGY is terrible situation for alliance.
But like I said people who can’t even grasp that 20 > 10 definitely won’t grasp more nuanced concepts like terrain.
You got nerves to allege I can’t grasp easy concept (lol) when I destroyed a lot of urban legends in this thread. But sure, just keep being condescending without explaining your “terrain theory”, it just proves you wrong. Terrain now, you got to be desperate.
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Well as long as you keep trying to claim the cave rez isn’t an advantage, yes that’s the only conclusion we can arrive at. You don’t understand that 20 is a greater number than 10.
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Look, technically, you can hit 200 years one day. But you will probably die before 100 years. It’s like the cave rez : you CAN rez 20 hordes in the same cycle but it just never happens hence the advantage is purely theoritical. And as far as I’m concerned, it barely never exceeds 10 rez every cycle.
But do you actually understand the word “can” ? Do you understand “possibility” does not mean “automatically” ?
Besides, you’re conveniently avoiding the fact that alliance do benefit of their own cave rez at some point.
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That’s fine, I’m sure living on a flat earth is also working out well for you.
Right after horde have taken SPGY and we’re now rezzing at the cave and can try to push past SHGY.
Oh right the game is already over by that point.
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This works when Horde are completely terrible and Alliance play near perfectly. Alliance in any scenario are splittling their forces between defense and offense. Horde don’t have to do that in any scenario.
SF is soft capped by Horde before Alliance round Bal. An all out offense on SF results in one of three things:
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Horde adjust and run head long into the Alliance push. If Alliance die on the path to SF, behind SF, or on or near the bridge from the spawn to the flag, they are NOT sent to SHGY even if they still hold it. They rez at AS in their base. This effectively puts those Alliance out of the game. Even if Alliance kill Horde 2/1, it doesn’t matter. Horde can reinforce 3X faster.
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Horde ignore the SF push and soft cap SHGY. At that point there are no Alliance rezzing north of SP. Horde simply death ball SF, again not concerned about losing 2/1 or even 3/1. SF is easily overrun before the five minute hard cap timer. I’ve been in games where this is the case and Alliance are sometimes able to recap SHGY. And you’re back where you started.
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Horde play like they’ve been collectively lobotomized and an Alliance win is possible IF everything is back capped, including DB - or IF your tanks, heals and dps are so spiffy they can kill extra WM and Drek in record time.
If you’re seriously suggesting going Galv, I have no words. And I’ll just leave that there.
SP is a fish bowl just like SH. The bridge is a much better defense but it ONLY works, again, if Horde are totally brain dead and don’t have any wing commanders or Lok.
It is literally impossible for Alliance to burn towers before Horde burn SHB and IWB. Horde reach SHB at the same time as Alliance. The only possibility of back capping SHB or IWB is if Alliance still control SHGY. Or, again, IF the Horde are stupid. If Alliance are still in control of SHGY, there is no Alliance offense, or there is no Horde zerg at SH and the Alliance offense is being wiped.
Or the Horde are playing like escaped mental patients.
Alliance don’t have the luxury of splitting forces between SF and IBGY until SF is capped. If SF caps, Horde have already capped SHGY and our bunkers are buring or gone. If Alliance push IBGY before SF is capped, they are sent back to DB or SP effectively being taken out of the Alliance offensive.
Alliance don’t have the luxury of capping IBT or TP until IBGY is capped - they HAVE to sit at the GY to hold it.
Unless, of course, this is the first AV every single Horde have queued into.
There is literally NO WAY Alliance can win a race with capping towers and killing the boss. None. Big mistakes have to be made by Horde from the beginning for Alliance to even cap IBGY while Alliance have to have perfect coordination.
And you’re right, I have been in games like this and people have repeatedly shouted out for mages to recall, which, at the most, only one or two did. I have gotten mouthy and called our mages useless. And I have called out people having temper tantrums when we lose the initial push who refuse to do anything but sit on their mounts at SH. In truth, I actually can’t blame them. When it’s clear the game is over, the game is over.
It doesn’t serve any purpose for me to do that. Taking out my frustrations on my fellow Alliance is pretty damn peevish so for that I apologize.
The fact is, an Alliance win is totally dependent on the Horde. If they’re even half awake, a win is impossible - even with a good Alliance team doing their best.
Alliance is mostly winning AV on retail btw, they’re using the old 1.5 map too. The map on both versions are asymmetrical, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. Instead of making up excuses as to why you can’t win, perhapse you should try to formulate strategies to better utilize your side of the map to your advantage. Alliance were doing it for months after AV launched on Classic too, so I know its possible.
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Well, both the First Aid Station and the Relief Hut are like that, yes. So 1 for the horde and 3 for the alliance.
Classic is NOT using 1.5 AV.
At the start of Classic, both sides were zergging. When Horde started using scorched earth, Alliance formed premades.
No one is zergging now and Blizzard removed the ability to queue sync.
As has been explained to you multiple times, this is not what horde do. If you can’t even get the very first thing Horde do right, why would anyone take the rest of what you are saying seriously? Your entire premise is flawed from the start. Horde don’t ignore IBGY and rush SHGY. Some Horde go to SHGY while at least half of Horde reacts to whatever position the Alliance choose to rush. Seriously. Stop posting.
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