Honestly, I would argue you played this wrong. Especially with that make up. Once you actually soft capped IBGY, I think you should have let Horde overreact back to IBGY while you fell back to SFGY and actually went for a hard cap there. Then you have 2 rez positions to rush IBGY which evens the numbers from the cave.
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This is especially true if you have the coordination advantage you did. Honestly, I think you wasted that advantage by pushing so hard to keep IBGY instead of using it to proactively use the Hordeās reactions against them.
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To be clear, none of that is saying that the cave rez isnāt a problem. It is. I just think this āhold IBGY at all costsā approach is almost always doomed unless you drastically outgun the horde playing. Sounds like you didnāt. Also, while ranks are a decent proxy on player skill, you might have just gotten unlucky and had some people like me in there. My rank is trash, but if I am on my rogue I can cause a ton of chaos even in these larger skirmishes.
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Edit: and I totally get that I am armchair quarterbacking that game. Easy to sit here and say this and that when I am not in there. What I am really trying to get at is that the games where I lose most consistently are the ones where the Alliance caused chaos and got Horde running around to a variety of spots. Once Horde is doing that, all three mid point objectives are very much in play. Thatās not easy to pull off unless you have a highly skilled shot caller along with players who are listening, or an actual coordinated effort like what you had.
Keep your condescending tone for yourself. Iām asking a bit of context on Camenaeās picture and sheās the only one who can answer. I certainly donāt need any answer from you now. Still fail to understand ā¦ wow
And by the way, her group hard capped IBGY so their numbers there will stay the same. Except if they leave. So it seems rather you who doesnāt understand something.
Sort of?
I was a little busy when I took the screenshot, as you can see lol. Caught myself mid-death. But to answer your question, we always do our best to not trade GYs, so we would leave some people behind to guard SH GY. Normally that is my group (Group 2 in the screenshot, consisting of me Marshal Camenae, Field Marshal Torent, Field Marshal (lost GM title by 1% yesterday /cry) Kummbosch, Knight-Champion Cretion sporting Thunderfury in tank gear and Ashkandi in DPS, and I forget the rogueās rank but heās the alt of an ex-GM).
Everybody else we send on the push team. Sometimes a couple donāt listen or get picked off, so weāll say 30+ on push team.
My group got called to IB GY because the push team was calling Mayday on Discord. Push team is led by Group 1 which consists of Commander Quenchers, Marshal Pedrosky, Marshal Tertullian, Field Marshal Wandalf, and Grand Marshal Retlyf. So my group had to leave SH GY and that is why I could not tell you whether at the time this screenshot was taken whether we still had SH GY hardcapped or not. We were hoping so, because since IB GY is in the process of being wiped out, those guys were being sent back to SH GY at least as of the time my team pulled out of SH GY.
When we got to IB GY, we saw this god-awful mess and as you can see most of my group which was supposed to stay defense in the north the whole game, is mostly dead, myself included.
As far as numbers go, you can actually see for yourself by looking at my screenshot and count how many were within range of me (brightened in raid frames). You can see that most who are in range of me are dead or near death. I presume those who are full health and out of range (dimmed in raid frames) were north at either SH or SP GY and trying to run back to IB.
Well but the thing isāand the reason we were in such doo-dooāis when you hardcap a GY that did not start off being hardcapped by your side, then once it hard-caps, thereās a couple seconds delay, then the first 30-second res timer starts. When that 30 seconds is complete, if the GY didnāt get soft capped back by the other side during that time, you get 10 ressers.
When I took this screenshot, IB GY had just hard-capped. So everybody was sent to a northern GY and had to start running back, and maybe a few were in ghost form at IB waiting for res.
Really it was purely by luck that IB GY turned hardcap, instead of being capped back by Horde during the final seconds of the 5-minute hardcap timer. Oh man it was close. My team abandoned SH GY and was riding for IB with abandon, having to let leakers just go by us in Field of Strife, while comms were full of āIām spinning! Iām spinning! Iām spinningā¦Oh Iām dead! Theyāre on the flag now. I think weāre going to lose it.ā Sure enough when we got there there were like 7 Horde already spinning the flag and we just had to kamikaze in.
The worst possible scenario for us would be if the ressers at IB waited out part or most of the 30-second res timer at IB GY, then we lose the hardcap on IB GY and they get sent back to a northern GY in ghost form to wait out another res timerā¦That would be a long time of them being out of commission. It was only by the skin of our teeth that that did not happen.
We did have SF GY at least soft-capped if it hadnāt turned already by the time I took my screenshot. Iām almost positive it was hardcapped at the time, because, as my screenshot shows, the Horde did overreact back to IB GY, so there could not have been many Horde at SF GY. When push team goes across Field of Strife, my group stays behind and goes between SF and SH GY, and if we see that there is not many at SF GY we will snake it, which we did.
Game hadnāt been going long at this point because there was just enough time elapsed for push team to go directly from SH GY to IB GY, soft cap it, and calling Mayday when it was most of the way through 5 minute hardcap timer. Sometime during this time, my team soft-capped SF GY, went back to SH GY to make sure no Horde ninja caps, then got called to IB GY. So I would say maybe 10 minutes in when I took the screenshot? Was not a lot of time for us to sit back and analyze strategy because everyone was just kind of in a frenzy responding to IB GYās cries for help.
But yes if we had ended up losing IB GY, we would have fallen back to SF and had a do-over.
Ah, I donāt even think this is an over reaction based on what you are saying. This was a good old fashioned butt whoopin. Sounds like most of the Horde got killed and were cave rezzing. Going to be real. My first reaction to reading the full break down is āhell yeah! you guys massacred themā lol! Have to appreciate it when the other team is just that much better.
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I assume once you got the full SFGY and SHGY hard caps and were able to finally maintain the IBGY hard cap that the game was a cake walk lol.
Completely unrelated to this thread, but do you think that maybe with the turnover of a lot of the old time blizzard staff going to that other company that maybe the people in positions saying āno changesā are finally out of the way? This might end up being a good thing for something like Classic where #minorchanges should be a thing.
Yeah, I know itās very frustrating. Except if you run to your corpse maybe but Iāll assume you guys already knew that and died recently.
Good it gives a lot of context for the timing part. It makes more sense to me now. Iāll give my comments to your other post.
I think they have no choice at this point, no matter who is in there. A lot of the game has gotten so ridiculously out-of-whack that they have to come up with fixes or theyāll have no game at all.
The same happened with BfA, they lost so many players during it that if they didnāt do something radical it was all going down the drain.
The question for both is it too little, too late?
Seems like this post was in vain, after reading the phase 6 patch notes. Totally a bummer, as decent AV games in classic are but a fantasy.
Well, it definitely is for this iteration of Classic. At this point I am hoping that if there is another iteration that they will take a more aggressive approach. Also hoping the approach carries over to TBC whenever they drop that.
Itās difficult to compare one particular AV. Timing, forces, players, classes, every game is different. While ranks is one element to take into consideration, itās more about time investment so it doesnāt mean people with high ranks are good and people with low ranks are bad. High ranks mean they played a lot so they probably have a lot of experience and they have good gear. At this point though, many people have good gear too (T2, AQ40) and some other deranked (as a former rank 13 Iām now a sergeant something for example).
Iām sure it was probably tough to cap IBGY in your AV but you still hard capped it in like 10 minutes. Meaning you soft-capped it in less than 5 minutes. I mean sometimes horde canāt even cap SHGY in 30 minutes (if not more). So sure it was hard but you did that really fast. Now it doesnāt happen often with hordes. They expect to win, they waited 2 hours and in less than 5 minutes you soft capped IBGY. You can be sure they are infuriated and will rage rush your team and try to do everything in their power to recap IBGY. Plus they know there is nothing else to do since there is no offense team in the north to go and try to base race. Itās the breaking point. They lose all or thatās mostly it for hordes.
Then the question of balance. Sure itās hard for alliance at that point. But the question is still would that be the same for horde in the same situation at SHGY ? Many people said it wasnāt fair and said the running time back to each respective gy was not fair.
So far I think I have demonstrated the running back time from horde cave to IBGY (40 seconds) is almost the same as SPGY to SHGY (45 seconds). So thatās not it.
Some people also says that the 20 rez cycle from horde cave allows 20 hordes to go back and keep pushing on alliance at IBGY until they are wiped while horde hold SHGY with their remaining forces. Itās true, horde does that strat often. But alliance can do it also. Does the rez cycle favors unduly horde ? Not really against a force of 20 because you will rarely be able to kill more then 10 hordes in 30 seconds trying to recap IBGY. They rush, they die, they rez. Itās total chaos. While some of them run back at IBGY, other dies so the advantage of the rez cycle barely never applies in that situation except if it they were charging all the 20 at the time and you kill them all in 30 seconds wich barely never happens, at least in my experience. The longer the running back time is, the less powerful is the cave, at least in a horde pug.Now once you hard capped IBGY, even if hordes keep coming at IBGY and have a 20 rez cycle bonus fully used vs. your 10 rez cycle, you rez much closer to IBGY so worst case scenario IBGY hard capped would be a turtle, which rarely happens too.
Now in your case, the difference would be that your team was facing 40 angry hordes. But the difficulty was that you just hard capped it. It also happens to hordes in the opposite situation (40 allies coming back to SHGY soon). so yeah itās hard. But my understanding is you were not in a never ending fight at IBGY.
So the real question is if 40 hordes are attacking IBGY, can you kill more than 10 per 30 seconds ? If so, how much ? Can you kill 20 per 30 seconds so the cave power is at his full potential ?
Thatās the real question. Killing more than 10 people in 30 seconds, thatās hard. Especially if there is a running back time (here 40 seconds). Itās not like youāre camping them at the cave, where they would have a 12 seconds running back time, or camping them in a graveyard with no running back time. So yeah, gy cycle imbalance is how many times it happens and for how many more hordes between 10-20 it applies. In my experience, it doesnāt apply much but Iāll try keep stats on that.
Maybe your fight was super hard yesterday. But Iām not so sure it was because of the rez cycle imbalance or at least, just because of that. Also, i noticed that your friend Torrent doesnāt seem to find the fight that hard. Heās spamming emotes and he is full mana. Just with that little example it seems the fight was not taken seriously by everyone which might be another reason it was a hard fight.
Edit : grammar
Interesting. Both Redhead and Misadventure liked this post, which means theyāve seen the screenshot a few posts above proving how broken IBGY is and the kind of overwhelming force it takes from a group of Alliance rankers toā¦still die anyway.
Neither of them commenting, just hiding and searching for literally any distraction to cling to other than facing the facts.
I guess your still ignoring the fact we agreed some parts of the map should be fixed.
We just donāt agree on how big of a contributor the map is to that alliance loss rate.
I know you donāt agree, despite literally being shown a screenshot of the cave rez allowing a Horde PUG to utterly overwhelm a group of rankers.
The same screenshot that shows a healer goofing off with emotes and at full Mana? Thatās the one your talking about right?
Also from the looks of it they had maybe 15 alliance holding IBGY at that screenshot. Horde were sending 25+ there.
But hay, letās ignore a healer soaking emotes instead of healing and that more horde were assaulting IBGY to take it back than alliance had defending it?
Again, Iām not saying the map is perfect, but alliance map criers do like to blow the imbalance out of proportion.
An easy example of this is the criers claiming it takes horde 28 seconds to get back to IBGY from cave rez, ignoring the 12 seconds of running to the cave entrance from Rez spot and mounting.
They also would have you believe alliance are so amazing they kill 20 horde every 30 seconds so horde are always getting that extra 10 Rez advantage somehow, every Rez cycleā¦ If they were killing horde that efficiently their healers wouldnāt even need to heal. We all know thatās not the case.
And they like to compare horde cave run time to IBGY to SPGY, instead of SHGY effectively adding 40+ seconds to the numbers game by using inconsistent comparisons. If you want to compare cave run back to IBGY they either need to compare it to the time it takes alliance to run to SHGY from SPGY or compare the cave to the run time of SHGY to IBGY. But no, they want is to view the run time from SPGY to IBGY, which is an improper comparison for what they are trying to show with it.
The map criers are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill by adding all the dirt from the other factors into it and claim all the factors are caused by the map. They arenāt. Que times have an impact on player behavior, HPH efficiency, exc. HPH/rep efficiency from game durations has an impact on player behavior. The lack of ability to full premade has an effect on the quality of players on each time on average. And many more factors. But the map criers want all the effects those factors have to be viewed as āitās because of the mapā.
I agree the map effects the win rate, I donāt agree it is the primary factor causing the 90+% loss rate though.
IBGY is hard to hold due to the cave, but the screenshots above didnāt tell the whole story though. From what I understand from the later explanation, the Alliance team had also at least soft capped SFGY and hard capped IBGY at that point meaning most of the Horde were dead and rezzing in the cave. While it is a very good example of the worst case scenario Alliance can face there (20 Horde rezzing in waves due to 25-30+ Horde dead), it isnāt the normal situation there.
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Not trying to downplay the difficulty of taking it either btw. It is hard when your nearest GY requires a detour around the back of a big hill to get in a position to defend after deaths occur. It is still hard when SFGY is capped and held by Alliance, but less so.
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That game though, they got overrun like that because they were too successful LOL. Straight up, even if they had lost it (which I am not sure they did), they would have reclaimed it 5-10 minutes later based on the timeline of SFGY hard capping for them around the time the screenshots are occurring.
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Again, not minimizing it, just putting it in context. The context is a thrashing and a last desperate attempt by a beaten Horde team to take IBGY back. That last desperate attempt is definitely made possible by the cave in this particular game.
But the cave is an issue just a small one according to Red.
Whatās funny is if this was reversed horde would also be losing every game.
If the map was reversed Iād still be advocating for balance changes. As Iām not clueless or blind to see and understand how massive the advantage is.
Of course, and horde who donāt suck at pvp the OP of this thread know full well itās an issue.
Itās still the same old Horde arguing tooth and nail about how AV is fine but they were full baby-rage back when alliance premades was running through horde teams in 8 minutes. XD āpaladins are doing this!! alliance are doing this!!! blizzard do something Horde donāt have the advantage waaaah!!ā but noooow itās alll cool, calm, and collected B) no changes felllassss
Imagine ā¦ teamwork actually accomplishing something. Horde just do it better. Personally id be all for switching sides to switch up the bg a little and approach it from a different view / layout. Iād be for that for sure.