AV Cave Rez situation

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
3861

So you contest it takes 12 seconds to run from cave after rezzing ? Are you saying hordes are rezzing at the cave’s gate ? How long you think it takes to run in cave from the rezzing point to the gate ? Guess what : 12 seconds.

Just go time the running time from alliance cave and you’ll see.

Seriously you have zero credibility right now.

Edit : I just saw (well saw again) your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp7AVGgw61I. Flawed fact : it starts AT THE GATE, not at the rezzing point. Man stop that non sense and admit the evidence. It’s a fact.

3862

I don’t understand what you’re trying to prove tho??

Are you suggesting alliance can reinforce IBGY faster than horde??

Like even if it takes 45 seconds to run from the Rez, that still beats the 90 seconds it takes alliance from SPGY to get to IBGY to reinforce it…

Like what’s your point?

Nothing you’re saying is proving or disproving ANYTHING lol.

I’m really lost as to what your evidence is trying to imply, other than we can out reinforce IBGY???

Which we clearly can’t.

1 Like
3863

Your looking at the destinations wrong like usual.

It takes you 90 seconds from SPGY to get to IBGY but your closest GY to IBGY isn’t SPGY. If you willing chose to give up SHGY, that’s what you chose to do.

A proper comparison would be how long it takes you to get to IBGY from SHGY which horde should have the advantage because it’s their territory. Or if you wanted to compare reinforcement of first GY lost from the backup Rez spot horde cave to IBGY is about 40 seconds, how long is SPGY to SHGY? Now compare it to how long it takes horde to get to SHGY from IBGY.

Your using flawed comparisons to make the map LOOK more broken than it is. You don’t compare SPGY to IBGY vs horde cave to IBGY that’s HEAVILY skewing the facts to show a statistic that isn’t even looking to the map balance and just trying to paint a flag red with falsely used facts.

It’s similar to how people skew facts on the news to make their story seem more dramatic. Example

“One hundred people needed medical attention after a bad bus crash” when in reality those 100 people got checked by medical employees to check for injury and not very many were actually hurt.

Your manipulating the facts to fit your agenda.

1 Like
3864

See I’m gonna have to stop you there.

So it’s ok for horde to give up IBGY for SHGY, hmmm I wonder why??? Maybe the cave rez PROTECTS THEM.

This is where your logic is flawed.

There is no way Alliance are keeping SHGY and taking IBGY until it hard caps. You are severely out of your mind if you think that’s a viable strat or would work at all.

Please don’t expect Alliance to hold both graveyards for 5 minutes, them blame us when we can’t do the impossible.

You’re out of your mind.

I guess it’s fine that horde have the easy road but Alliance are expected to do the impossible.

1 Like
3865

I’m sorry you can’t do a simple strategy of having an offence team and a defense team?

Horde do it, why can’t alliance.

And before you say no horde don’t. We have a defensive team at IWB while waiting on SPGY to hard cap by YOUR own words. Is that not doing exactly what you just said is impossible?

Oh wait I know why it’s impossible! Because alliance have 25% less people on average per game because of the leachers and afk!

Again, the map is not the major factor holding you back. It’s your dead weight on your own team.

1 Like
3866

Horde don’t do it ROFL.

Horde leave IBGY abandoned, because they know their cave will come to the rescue when it’s taken. You are so full of it.

Horde leap frog graveyards, the way AV is supposed to be played.

Alliance can’t play that way in AV because it’s an automatic loss.

Imagine if we took ibgy and you had to wait 90 seconds for reinforcements, and they only spawn 10 at a time I bet horde wouldnt leave IBGY undefended then.

But since their the handicap faction they don’t need to.

In your example the alliance already lost and aren’t interested in trying to defend a game that’s over, they are trying to sneak south to actually get anything out of the BG before it ends.

I’m sure you already knew that tho.

You keep trying to compare SPGY and aid station stuff to IBGY, sorry bud IBGY and SHGY are what decides who wins, it’s the very first objective.

Do horde lose 95% of the map if IBGY gets taken? No ofc not, they are the handicap faction. Do alliance lose 95% of the map when SHGY is taken?? Yes they do.

1 Like
3867

Every game we leave 3-5 at IBGY that I have been in… Then again you have said you don’t play AV any more so…

3868

3-5.

Lololooool.

Ok we will leave 5 at SHGY and see how it turns out, I mean if horde can get away with it and the map is clearly fine what could go wrong?

You sir are special.

4 Likes
3869

He has made it abundantly clear that he does not understand the AV map. He argues that the map isn’t the major reason alliance lose instead of understanding the map should not be any part of the reason alliance lose and yet it is. He even agreed it needs changes, and yet he still argues.

3 Likes
3870

Oh I know.

Like I said he’s very special.

1 Like
3871

Leaving 3-5 is enough to stop the stealth, our main force that heads to SHGY intentionally clashes with the alliance main force heading to IBGY.

We call out left or right to intentionally clash 20ish horde Into that alliance group and maybe 10-15 don’t do the clash and don’t defend but instead go for SHGY.

You haven’t been in AV for months though, so you don’t know how it works now.

1 Like
3872

I argue how much of an impact it has, you want me to believe it causes the entire 99% loss rate, ignoring every other factor that effects the win rate and dismissing it or claiming it’s a symptom of the map vs something else that isn’t the maps fault (like que times, HPH efficiency, exc.)

Your view is the map causes 99% of alliance losses.

My view is the map causes about 5% of alliance losses from a 50% winrate to a 45/55, the other winrate percentage that is lost is caused by a multitude of other factors that have been listed multiple times.

You look at one tree and blame it for all your problems, I look at the forest and see the multiple trees and try to determine the effects each is having.

The map is a factor, but it’s not the massive mountain you make it out to be as if it’s the only thing that will ever effect win rates. Hint hint, it’s not.

3873

Show me where I ever said the map is the sole reason alliance lose AV. And what difference does it make if it’s the major reason or not if it’s broken? Fix it and stop arguing about something that nobody can prove, even you and your fabricated numbers. The map imbalance can be and has been proven.

Classic AV has been a major disappointment. Of all of the versions of AV, we got the absolute worst and it has caused alliance to stop queuing to the point horde sit in 2 hour queues. That’s a shame and Blizzard’s failure to address that is an even bigger shame.

2 Likes
3874

That’s not on his agenda tho.

He needs to try and prove that horde are better and even if the map was fixed we still would win

That’s his actual agenda. Not balance.

2 Likes
3875

Pretty late to the party here.

I played Vanilla through it’s middle. I didn’t start at launch, but I did start shortly after.

I know memory that far back can’t truly be trusted but, I know for sure I didn’t spend a lot of time with 1.12 AV back then.

I sure wish we would’ve got the middle-range of what AV was.

I had so much fun back then. Horde won sometimes, we won sometimes. I joined AV just because it was fun, long after I was exalted and long after I stopped ranking. Now? Unconditionally no. I will never set foot in AV again, ever.

Such a pity.

Blizzard doesn’t even have any excuse since they were able to re-create classic AV in retail.

So I don’t care and it doesn’t matter that they “lost the code.”

AV was a huge part of my vanilla experience. Now it’s just something to pretend does not exist.

6 Likes
3876

The horde are not better players, the best alliance players are not in AV because of HPH and no premading combine with the short ques for any BG they chose. The best horde still play AV inside their other BG ques because all the ques are long and it’s a good HPH for the horde because of que times and the number of honorable kills you can get in one AV that give honor.

It’s not that horde>alliance it’s the horde that que for AV have our best players still while the best alliance players avoid it. This is what causes the skill gap. And as you may have noticed it’s not the map causing it as a primary cause. Sure the map contributes to the HPH issue that keeps the best alliance away, but it’s mostly the inability to full man premade and getting leachers and other dead weight on their team that keeps the best alliance away in terms of on the map effects they would deal with.

You think I have an agenda to say horde are better, I don’t. I have an agenda to get people to use logic and see all (or at least most) of the factors/variables on the subject of AV winrate.

The map needs to be fixed, we agree on that, what we disagree on is how big of a factor the map itself actually is on the winrates.

3877

You don’t have to trade if you’ve got my team(s) defending SH GY ^_^. In normal game conditions I’m not so sure. I hardly think Alliance go into it intending to do the trade. It’s just the way it plays out because if we don’t commit enough to IB GY offense, then we can’t soft cap and most importantly hold IB GY.

It requires that much manpower hold IB GY because of, again, the Horde cave res. I play AV almost every night and we win the majority of the times, but let me tell you it is hard. With my team that would be roflstomping everywhere else, because our people are literally flasking and sapper charging and crap, we still get wiped out all the time because Horde can just throw so many bodies at us.

I play priest on Horde side too (also named Camenae), and I do not have the same experience defending any GY from Alliance.

Something is causing this discrepancy and my team being in the AV removes the “team is not trying” factor.

How? I am actually curious if you can walk me through this, as in: Alliance comes out of the cave, group up at SH, go straight to Horde cave…? Because it is all we can do (and we can do a lot because of how sweaty we are) to defend SH, push to IB, and freaking 300 at the Battle of Thermopylae style hold IB.

The thing is we can’t view everything in a vacuum, right? Yeah I guess if that was our only objective is to farm Horde in the cave, it is possible that we can bum-rush there and do it for a while. But doing that is not practical and does not synergize with other things we do in the game.

So OK if my team hard-capped IB GY and now we do have 30 Alliance down south, we do hold Horde in the path out of the cave (I posted a screenshot of me doing this a few posts ago). However that is only a by-product of us babysitting Tower Point until it burns. It’s not a part of our strategy of "let’s do this because it helps us hold IB, because by the time we can get around to doing that, we’ve already hardcapped IB, soft capped TP, backcapped northern objectives, and at that point pushed past the point of no return of the game and Alliance victory is all but assured. So if we do it it is only out of spite (which we sometimes do, ahahahaha), not out of strategy.

1 Like
3878

No one is using AV for hph.

Not sure why you keep bringing it up.

the only players on both sides doing av are people like you for the free wins because you cant play a fair BG and people who want rep.

Not sure why you think people are ranking thru AV.

1 Like
3879

Once you have soft capped IBGY, send one hunter (preferably NE) to drop a frost trap at cave entrance. He should have entrapment talented.

This staggers the hordes next spawn by keeping them slowed on mounting, entrapment rng keeps them from being able to run in as a group due to its RNG nature and buys you time to send a few mages and. A healer there. Turn the entrance into a meat grinder.

The hunter should be frost trapping (pulls gaurds to trigger trap or let’s horde hit it, either works), FD shadow meld in a spot horde won’t see you, and repeat every Rez cycle that is safe to do so until your meat grinder shows up.

The frost trap delays the horde by an additional few seconds each time and staggers them with entrapment so they are running in in small groups instead of in mass. If you want the hunter can also have an owl for aoe combat tag, send it in to prevent mounting for a few seconds, hunter FD invis potions, gnomish cloaking device, exc. And shadow meld in a random spot to stay alive there to keep up the harassment. The hunter can do this every Rez cycle as it will still have the hunter having time to Rez pet and send it back in next cycle (unless horde waste time looking for hunter, but that’s also good for the IBGY soft cap timer)

The hunters job is simply to waste their time. It might not seem like much but let’s assume the GY got a max Rez of 20. The hunter delays all 20 by 5 seconds. That’s 100 seconds worth of delay collectively and if it staggers their approach to IBGY to be easier to pick them off, that’s good for alliance as well.

I did this some of my games as a NE hunter back in vanilla, and it helps. (Other games I was on tower defense at the bridge for the sneakies). I didn’t get out on eagle eye duty more than a few games as I didn’t have the macros set up for it (the rare game I was the only hunter that understood what eagle eye duty was).

I never lead AV teams on vanilla, but I knew my role as a hunter decently back then, and it amazes me how some of what was done back then isn’t even being tried in today’s AVs by alliance.

I guess I’ve always just been more into the guerrilla tactics of delay/distract or be the watcher (I preferred being offense team over being the bridge watcher).

But hay, I want to face alliance that actually try in AV, it’s much more fun.

3880

Horde do staggered ques. They will que for AV, do about 5-10 WSG/AB (w/e their premade is doing) and then do the AV when it pops.

Part of the reason horde do this is because of that 99% loss rate from alliance making it a reliable win. Because the better alliance players avoid AV and alliance give up in AV much more than they do in other BGs.