Yeah only around 45% of our losses come from the map.
The rest is people leaching because of the map oh wait that would mean it’s the map still.
Yes, I agree with this Graff. That’s really what I am trying to get at. It isn’t that they are better, it is literally just because the queue times are longer that Horde has more interest in “let’s see how this plays out a bit longer” because it is more economically viable to do so. I have said it before, but if I played Alliance and I was in there purely for HPH or RPH, I would /afk at the drop of a hat just like Horde did 15 years ago on my server.
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Literally what you said is what I am trying to convey. Horde “try harder” isn’t some code for “they are at the GYs killing and Alliance are just standing around.” It literally means Horde will stay with a game longer.
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That’s it. That is literally all of it too because for the most part I have found Alliance will play pretty hard until SHGY falls. Some games I will get lucky and there are better Alliance in there and back and forth in the middle occurs.
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That’s a long way of saying that you are speaking my language LOL.
Yes, I agree. I think “tries harder” is probably the wrong way of communicating what I am getting at. Will stay in a BG through more adversity is what I am getting at. That’s not saying they “care” more either. It is in Horde’s interests to remain there longer in the hopes that the game turns around. That’s it.
Giving up from the start has nothing to do with queue times and generally I don’t think Alliance do this. However, /afk whenever any kind of adversity hits has everything to do with queue times. It is a strategic decision to leave and because Alliance have the short queue times it is in there best interests to ditch the game.
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Out of curiosity, this map shod be 50/50 for pug vs pug.
Atm it’s like 5/95.
So alliance as a whole have a 5% win rate, now people like Red think the map is only responsible for maybe another 5% of our losses, meaning with what he now plus what he feels we would still be at 10/90, meaning the remainder 40% is just cuz we are bad.
What so you think the loss rate for Alliance is as far as what the map is responsible for?
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Losing SHGY before getting a southern GY is a loss condition for alliance. That typically happens within the first 5-10 minutes of the game.
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I am going to make a nuanced answer here because I think it requires one. Before the game starts, I tend to think it is a 30/70 map favoring the south side. Obviously that’s not fair, but it generally reflects how my games go.
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Allow me to unpack that. 1. I am only talking AV weekend. 2. I am only talking about competitive games. Games where Alliance isn’t trying get tossed (they exist). Games where Alliance get ROFLSTOMPED also don’t count because I assume the disparity in skill was high. Games where Horde isn’t trying also get tossed (these are rare, but they exist). Games where Horde gets ROFLSTOMPED also don’t count (trying to keep it even).
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With that out of the way, I think games where there is clearly someone on the Alliance side calling shots and the Alliance is clearly listening I have a 70% chance of winning. When I play AV weekend, the back and forth in the middle is enough to tell me whether we are likely to win. Games where Alliance only defend SHGY we have a 95% chance to win. Might be higher. I don’t remember ever losing one of these in Classic. Games where Alliance hits IBGY while defending SHGY then falls back to SFGY I think I have a 70% chance to win. Games where Alliance go SFGY then fall back to SHGY I think I have a 95% chance to win. Games where Alliance hit SFGY, actually hold it for a bit (not necessarily hard cap it) then proceed to IBGY, I think I have a 50% chance to win.
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That last one is a bit misleading though because I think the chances Alliance pull that one off are roughly 1 in 10 games where they attempt it. Most games it ends up being SFGY, fail, fall to SHGY, game over.
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Not sure if that makes sense, but in my experience it really does come down to how Alliance play the map. Maybe 70% chance is too low. Maybe it is more like 80%. IDK. It is just roughly what I think my odds of winning any particular game in AV are. The breakdown is a better reflection though.
It can’t be broken down like that because the factors are complex and deep. An imbalance changes how people play which causes more/deeper imbalances and it continues the cycle.
Overall, if we could get queues even, both sides similar, and both playing a good mix of offense and defense I think it might be about 60% wins for horde. But that isn’t a stable situation, people will change how they play based on tons of external and internal factors.
And this is what I have been trying to get them to understand.
They want to blame the map as if it’s the only factor, it’s not, and it’s definitely not such a large factor that it makes the other factors irrelevant.
The map effects the win rate by about 5%, 10% at the absolute very most, but I’m more conservative on my views of how much of an impact the map is actually having at this time because the other factors are very apparent in their effects. It may be my personal experience but outside of AV weekend I find an average of about 10 alliance who are leaching or just full on afk. That’s 25% of the alliance team and even if the map was perfect that alliance team is going to have a very hard time winning under those conditions.
Then there’s the que time to efficiency cause and effect for both efficiency of active play and leaching. With the near instant que times it makes leaching FAR more effective for alliance players than it is for the horde due to far less downtime and minimal effort. This causes alliance to have more leachers on average.
But then you look at active play efficiency. With the fast que times for alliance it becomes better to lose 4 30 minute games than win one 2+ hour game in terms of honor, reputation, and downtime. While horde have to maximize even the 30 minute games because their que times are far, far longer. Which results in less leaching, more willingness to use consumables (as well as more time to farm them durring the que) and being less willing to give up at the slightest sign of a long or losing game.
And then still more factors like the common level/gear/number of alts in alliance AV compared to horde. The speed of exalted. The HPH efficiency for rankers on both sides because of que times, exc.
LOL.
You’ve proven you actually know nothing.
Just adding you to my report as troll list.
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still waiting on a single piece of evidence to back up any of your claims
math and basic logic shows that the map is such a big factor that it gives the horde a 2-3x advantage over the alliance.
just cause you make up claims all day does not make the map suddenly balanced.
Gave the evidence, it got ignored, I got insulted instead of a reply to the evidence. You don’t want evidence you want an echo chamber.
You refuse to accept any evidence I do provide so why would I get more for you to ignore? You ignore it because it doesn’t fit your narrative of blaming everything on the map. You see nothing but “horde favoritism” and cry like a 3 year old with your eyes closed and fingers in your ears.
You wonder why blizzard hasn’t changed the issues caused by the map? Because there’s other factors having a much bigger impact than the map does.
Lol 1 screenshot was his evidence ROFL.
That showed alliance gave up in AV…I wonder why they gave up? Could it be the map?
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You have not given any evidence you thinking that what you gave is evidence is part of the problem. You do not understand what is and what is not evidence.
Pretty convenient answer. Don’t answer if you can’t argue. Another one that can’t accept to be wrong and insult/dodge/doesn’t answer.
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Gave far more than one screenshot, I gave over a dozen screenshots with showing leachers and even showing the spot the leachers were hiding being empty after the fight moved to far from that spot.
But your entire argument consists of insults so…
Again you keep showing leechers.
We have been thru this…CONGRATS YOU FIGURED OUT ALLIANCE HAVE GIVEN UP IN AV.
IT MUST BE BECAUSE WE ARE QUITTERS AND CLEARLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MAP.
I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said. Disprove any of the video evidence that’s states horde advantages.
You are in the MINORITY thinking the map isnt the major issue it is.
Keep preaching about these screenshots of alliance afk, ofc they are afk, they CANT WIN BECAUSE OF THE MAP.
The complete denial of how you see things is borderline crazy at this point.
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When premades were broken there was a heavy bot infestation on the alliance AV pugs.
By the time that got fixed there was now a heavy defeatist attitude that caused a lot of leaching and afk.
We have yet to see alliance pugs try to win AV without having the bot or leach infestation. The map was never brought up as a problem until premades got broken even though there were still plenty of pug alliance AVs outside of the premades. And those alliance pugs won a decent amount until the bot infestation started.
Currently alliance have a leacher infestation that is holding their winrate back far more than what the map does. And the map didn’t cause the leachers, the bots did. Back before the bots got banned it would be 20ish bots per AV alliance pug. So 50% of your team wasn’t players in the pugs, now it’s down to about 25% average of leachers but they were broken from trying from the bots, not the map. The map wasn’t even being discussed as an issue when the afk/leach meta became a thing. It was complaining about the bots.
The map did not cause the leachers. It’s just another excuse they use to keep doing it because they are the problem. You want to blame the map for alliance not trying, when alliance gave up before the map was even the issue being complained about. It was bots. But you latched onto the next excuse to not try, and you chose the map, instead of the dead weight that was your own teammates.
You want to blame the map for everything, when the map is one of the factors, not the cause of every factor.
Oh, is Red still posting? Wow…well thanks ignore list!
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Yup, more of his idiotic stuff.
Nothing’s changed.
Maps fine.
Leechers aren’t there cuz of map.
Alliance bad.
Him 1500 rated player good.
And this is why ignore lists are great. I honestly tried having a discussion but it was nothing but going in circles of denial. I don’t have time for that.
He really convinced himself that the map is really just a 5% swing on why we lose ROFL.
I have never seen such stupidness in all of my life in a video game.