So how long you think it takes to RUN out of the cave ? Maybe you should try ally side and you won’t say stuff like that. 40 seconds from rezzing point to IBGY. With an epic mount too (just like in the video for that part). Fact.
Well no that clearly shows horde are just a prone to give up when they’re losing. The map just puts alliance in that situation much more often.
It’s exact behavior that so many of the trolls in this thread claiming AV is fine accuse alliance of as the reason they lose. But hey turns out that horde players are just the same as alliance they just have a map advantage and so rarely end up actually showing it.
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You need to reread what you are quoting. He didn’t say they gave up when they were losing. He said they were wiping the floor with them and they gave up. Horde don’t /afk at the slightest hint of trouble like this video specifically tells Alliance players to do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgDuSyY7MrY
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The faction with the longer queue will always take a different approach to non-blowout games. That’s just as accurate today as it was 15 years ago.
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Edit: and to be clear, I am not linking that video saying it teaches Alliance some magical formula on winning. It doesn’t. It is educational on the attitude many Alliance players have toward using /afk strategically. There is nothing wrong with that either. But don’t turn around and say they try just as hard as Horde. They don’t. Period.
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Horde gave up when they were in an obviously losing game. That’s the effect of losing. Alliance do the same thing.
Lots of the horde trolls defending the map don’t understand cause and effect.
As for that video while I don’t /afk out of games from a purely numbers perspective the game is typically over within the first 5-10 minutes and if you are trying to maximize win rate you afk out if it’s going to be a loss at that point.
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Horde gave up when they were getting smoked. Find me the comparable video telling Horde to /afk under similar conditions as that Alliance focused video. I will wait. You won’t find it though because it doesn’t exist. The difference between the two factions in willingness to push through an adverse game is night and day. Not because Horde players are naturally more willing to do so. Nope. It is purely based on length of queue. That’s literally the difference.
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Oh, and bravo for finding one guy who didn’t even say what you are claiming he is saying and then twisting his statement into this trash line of thinking.
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Horde don’t end up in that situation often enough for it to be an issue. If horde had a 95% loss rate that was determined within the first 5-10 minutes you can bet they’d be doing that exact same thing.
Horde also don’t have 5 minute queues to fall back on. Even in a 1 hour loss, the HPH / RPH is better to go down swinging than it is to /afk for another 2 hour queue. Seriously. You don’t know what you are talking about. You like to throw around grand statements like “this disproves the myth that x” and what you are quoting from exactly one game doesn’t prove anything of the sort. It is even more delightful that you pull stunts like this when there are multiple players on this very thread who play both sides and contradict your ill informed and sourceless claim.
The argument that alliance prefer to lose instead of win just because they have fast queues is flat out silly. Alliance will try just as hard as horde until it becomes apparent it’s a loss. That’s determined within the first few minutes of the game. After that if it’s a loss it’s a long boring game trapped north of SHGY, which shockingly a lot of alliance don’t want to do.
And the dirty secret horde like to ignore is that even in the premade days they were still getting decent rep/honor even in a loss because they were getting lt’s/balinda/some bunkers, oh yeah with significantly better queues than today. Alliance are getting nothing in a scorched earth game.
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Except even when premades decimated horde horde would still try to get w/e they could from the game instead of just giving up.
Horde would try to get as many people north, past the alliance wall at IBGY as much as possible to try to cap anything for some reward, to kill lieutenants for some reward, exc.
Last AV weekend I gave screenshots, that close game that alliance had most of the south and horde had most of the north was after alliance initially demolished us. Yet we kept going and pulled a win (because they didn’t send anyone to defend while we had a 20/20ish split of offence and defence). That was with alliance winning from the start. We got people past the alliance choke they set up at IBGY by warrior fear bombing, stealth, would stones, invisibility potions (my method), exc.
We pulled what would have been defeat based on the first 5 minutes of the game, into a victory. How? Because we didn’t give up.
You like to say all horde do is Zug Zug in AV, that’s not true. We have shot callers every game. We call out where the alliance push is and charge into it to not let them pass, or when we lost IBGY and where choked south? We called out warriors to charge marked targets and fear bomb, this CCed most of the alliance choke for a short time, letting a good number of horde pass. Yet somehow alliance can’t do this to IWB choke? Part of my role for that warrior fear bomb strategy was to run past then drop frost trap so alliance couldn’t follow the horde push as easily, which is why I had to use an invisible potion to pass later as I was part of the distractions team to get horde past.
And yes we timed out push with GY respawn times in account.
We had a good shot caller that game and it made a huge difference, but the most important part that won us the game? That was horde not giving up after IBGY was lost.
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Yeah usually two groups of 5. More than that, queue syncing can take a long time. So we’d get in one and tell individual queuers which one to specifically queue for.
Even so our win rate is not nearly what it would be for a premade of the same sweat level in WSG or AB. If Horde has even a 5-man in there then it’s likely a loss. Even Horde side is a pure pug, it can still be a loss or a very hard won fight (like the hour+ win I talked about a couple posts ago).
Something about AV map itself is causing even a pure horde pug to have almost as much power as a pretty sweaty Alliance premade. And like I said we have not been able to come back yet from a horde hard-capped SH gy, yet we lose Alliance hard-capped IB and SF gys all the time. That’s what often causes the long games is we might have to go cap it and hold it until hard cap several times.
That is not something I’ve had seen Horde has to do with SH GY. Something is causing this and one cannot tell me it’s because Alliance doesn’t know how to play or doesn’t try as hard, because even if it’s us sweaty rankers against level 55 Horde in quest greens, once SH GY is gone it’s gone.
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Durring this time did you check how many alliance were just leaching/afk?
Because I specifically look for them every game. And it’s usually near 10. So playing with 25% less players on your team is a big impact.
Just saying, the map isn’t the only factor.
Farming as many NPCs as possible before the game ends is not trying to win. Alliance do the same thing. We try to kill as many NPCs as we can if we can get to them. Horde folded when faced with a high risk of losing. Once you accept that alliance/horde are not different, then you might be capable of reasonable debate. Horde are not some super power PvP war machines. They are no different than alliance. The map makes it easy for horde win, hard for alliance and that is why we are where we are today.
Do you enjoy those 2 hour queues and easy wins? What exactly are you trying to accomplish in these threads? If you agree the map is broken, stop arguing against fixing it.
Yes we do check because we want to report AFK players to get them out, so that our individual queuers waiting to get in can get their spot.
Of course I can’t say we never get AFK’ers, but most games it’s 1-2, never near 10. I mentioned a few posts ago that before gate opens, we do a quick debriefing and that wakes the team up and they get all raring to go.
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Yes this exactly. You articulated my point better than I did. Horde give up when they realize they can’t win anymore because the northern part of the map is all blue.
Then they start doing exactly what alliance does most games: Start leaking north (south for alliance obviously) to cap objectives, clearly not trying to win but just hopefully give it enough time to hardcap in the 2 minutes after game is over but before they are kicked from BG.
We backcap what we can because we don’t want warmasters, but we still can’t do scorched earth as effectively as Horde can. They will generally get Balinda if they were going for her and a lot of Lts. Something about the BG itself is causing that too, because again it’s not for lack of trying.
Horde and Alliance are the same because it’s all PEOPLE behind the computers. So something else is causing the vast discrepancy in win rates.
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I preached this till im blue in the face, none of them understand it.
Even in AB and wsg premade vs pre-mades, the losing team typically would give up. If losing.
They try at the start, if the other team wins the team fights and caps flags they just give up cuz it’s faster to lose.
Yet alliance are called out in AV for doing what both factions do. The only difference is the AV map is so imbalanced horde can’t lose often so they don’t give up.
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It seems like a lot of the trolls trying to claim the map is fine just have a very poor understanding of cause and effect.
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I’ll do one better and say AB is actually 85% win rate. At least at my level.
It’s better to just type /afk and take the debuff than to turtle at SP and eventually get wiped at the choke or galv. You can claim there’s a chance after SH is lost and it won’t make it true. After that point it’s just a rep game for Alliance.
At the beginning of the game you’d be mistaken if you think Alliance doesn’t try. They try. They all try. Alliance know they have to at least cap SF or IBGY to even have a CHANCE at winning. If SH is soft capped before either of those GY’s has been hard capped, it’s a loss.
Everyone knows this. Alliance know this. Horde know this. YOU know this.
Giving up when the game is lost has NOTHING to do with queue times. The very idea is idiotic.
This is a bit misleading. First of all, there is no “horde” or “alliance”, there are just people. People will react to the situation and circumstances, change those and they will react differently.
Currently, horde have long queues and alliance have short ones. There’s more incentive to have a long game on the horde side and there’s more incentive to have short ones on the alliance side. The end result is that it’s worth it for the horde to fight over every single little thing and for the alliance to get a couple of quick things and then catch the next AV.
Thus, saying that horde try harder doesn’t mean they care more or are better at the game, just that their method of optimizing play means they get more for sticking with the game.
Also, it happens that this kind of play is the best for AV. It results in more wins that are very difficult for alliance to overcome. The flip is true too, back in Vanilla it was alliance with the longer queues so often horde would give up early rather than turtle and play scorched earth. Horde wanted shorter games so they could turn around and get the next one, just like alliance do now.
It just didn’t get as out-of-control back then as it does now. Maybe due to the ultra-high amount of min-max culture these days, maybe because of differences in how the map works for going south vs going north. There’s no doubt that these days the win ratio is completely crazy compared to how it used to be. No one won 95%+ of the battles back in Vanilla. I believe the worst it got was around 70-30.
edit:
I just saw this from a later comment:
Nice to see we are on the same page on this! Exactly what I was getting at.
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So you admit it’s not entirely a map issue, good to see some of you are actually looking at factors outside of just the map.