We’ll just have to wait until TBC to find out. In the meantime, I’ve bookmarked this and hope you’re still playing when that happens.
I really hope we don’t have to wait until BC to get this fixed. Everyone knows it has to be fixed, might as well get on it now instead of leaving the BG like this for another year.
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Not only do the devs disagree - they’ve given interviews on the stats as to why.
The issue is 100% on Alliance. We premaded, forced horde to develop the choke point, and now are crying cause we spilled our milk.
1.12 AV was always historically the zerg format, which favors alliance.
The ACTUAL solution to this is to not move the cave since that isn’t vanilla. It is to revert to 1.5 AV and give us the perfection we want.
If this were reversed and the map was like this for Horde, it would already have been fixed. Since this disadvantages Alliance, it won’t happen.
Activision already did that. Alliance could reliably win with 40-man rush to drek, so they nerfed premades. They’re fine with horde winning 99% of games. Alliance not so much, even if it results from social interaction and teamwork (which should be encouraged in MMOs).
Ironically, it was more balanced back then. Horde took a decent number of games by also rushing and using delaying tactics with 5-10 people with their superior base layout.
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First, I’d love to know what magical strategy they used.
Second, I’d love to know how often this has actually occurred, as I’d bet 5,000g that despite these apparent losses, Ally/Horde victories is not even 40/60, which would still prove a massive lopsided situation, but would be better than the current win/loss.
You resurrect 20 at a time from a location that is close enough to readily defend and reinforce IBGY and FWGY. Should Alliance rush from SHGY to IBGY to take it, they only resurrect 10 at a time from a further away location than Horde who lost the GY. Contrast that with Ally losing SHGY and we have a further run from SPGY that also only resurrects 10 at a time.
The Alliance cave only becomes a factor once we lose SPGY, in which our own bridge can work as a choke against us, not to mention the narrow cliffs around SPGY funnel us with into a handful of AoE to cover the entire exit.
Resurrecting at twice the rate from a closer location is not slight.
SFGY does not meaningfully assist in taking IBGY as it is only marginally closer to IBGY and still only resurrects 10 at a time to the Horde reinforcement of 20 at a time from the cave, which is still closer.
“Alliance do just fine when the Horde are so badly played, geared, or otherwise incompetent that the Alliance can ignore GY resurrection points because they just don’t die no matter how much Horde throw at them!”
That’s precisely the problem. Ally only win when they are dramatically better played and geared and organized than the Horde. Mindless Horde can zerg SHGY and eventually win because of the map advantage.
Go away troll.
No.
LOL No.
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The sad thing is that there are people who actually believe this.
They used the same strat that they always used - they ZERG. It worked all the way through private servers.
You resurrect 20 at a time from a location that is close enough to readily defend and reinforce IBGY and FWGY. Should Alliance rush from SHGY to IBGY to take it, they only resurrect 10 at a time from a further away location than Horde who lost the GY . Contrast that with Ally losing SHGY and we have a further run from SPGY that also only resurrects 10 at a time.
The Alliance cave only becomes a factor once we lose SPGY, in which our own bridge can work as a choke against us, not to mention the narrow cliffs around SPGY funnel us with into a handful of AoE to cover the entire exit.
You don’t need and should not care about IBGY. The only reason why you do is because the premades started doing this to max their honor and try to screw over horde.
BlockquoteSFGY does not meaningfully assist in taking IBGY as it is only marginally closer to IBGY and still only resurrects 10 at a time to the Horde reinforcement of 20 at a time from the cave, which is still closer.
Once again, IBGY was NEVER A THING. EVER.
Alliance do just fine when the Horde are so badly played, geared, or otherwise incompetent that the Alliance can ignore GY resurrection points because they just don’t die no matter how much Horde throw at them!”
That’s precisely the problem. Ally only win when they are dramatically better played and geared and organized than the Horde. Mindless Horde can zerg SHGY and eventually win because of the map advantage.
Go away troll.
He’s not wrong - most pugs I’m in we deserve to lose. We are running around mid letting healers freecast, and ignoring objectives. He’s correct.
No.
Yes - emphatically yes.
LOL No.
Yes - Literally an article discussing AV and the title is WHY DOES HORDE ALWAYS LOSE AV.
https://www.engadget.com/2007-06-12-why-does-the-horde-always-lose-alterac-valley.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMzgJhaujaY-ex2dWvDkwuQgy_9I8o8AO_4cW5JleFyGLfy5R2Ij07DnBPJhaZV9s86Abvkxetj3-G1xDiW12nGdHNs2m3Pmv0p7aOIPfWRkUQOEmgTnBXLE1yhFSN26Yav7INFN-uMC8_1KPMXowaw2nAon5h3XhEmTKrrX4p2I
https://beust.com/wow-battlegrounds.html
http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/10/01/does-the-horde-really-win-every-battleground/
Kalgon discussing A/H win ratios - TL;DR? Ally won most (over 60%).
Sorry Mate. Gotta use facts not just say no because you don’t like it.
You realize the meta has changed since 2007 right? This is just a long winded “Alliance needs to git gud”. Unfortunately there isn’t some magical strategy that is going to fix this situation, no interviews from 2007 will enlighten the Alliance to a more balanced win rate.
If you’re fine with the status quo with Alliance only winning 1% of the games and Horde having multi-hour queues then please carry on. Some of us are looking for the map to be adjusted to deal with the way the meta has evolved so queues can go down and Alliance could win a few games.
I love how the guy who said
posts an article about how horde lost AV back in the day,
yet conveniently ignores the line in the article
“Horde lost AV because of all the AFK cavejumpers, the fishers, the level 52 warriors screaming orders”
Also people were bad back then an average pug today progresses farther in a few hours than a typical guild did in months of raiding in vanilla.
Also please dont say such dumb things like…
It was and is a thing, or do you not remember how when they made the games shorter with reinforcements horde got a near unbeatable advantage because of IBGY defense winning them the game outright… forcing Blizz to change the map to balance it. Guess what that defensive advantage still exists in 1.5 and all versions up to 2.4 when it was changed.
ya just ignore the GY that lets you not get sent minutes away and north of a horde choke or two whenever you die, totally doesn’t mean you will get destroyed by even a small defensive force just slowly throwing themselves at you draining mana and health and eventually killing you because you know you have no reinforcements.
I mean I would say this is one of the dumbest posts made by a map denier, but luckily for you redheadchild and his ram “advantage” exists so you miss the gold medal for dumbest defense of the map.
2 Likes
I have no intentions of playing TBC-Classic. My goal was to recreate this original char I had back in vanilla, and I’ve done that.
I really hope we don’t have to wait until BC to get this fixed. Everyone knows it has to be fixed, might as well get on it now instead of leaving the BG like this for another year.
You’ll get your “fix” when TBC-Classic rolls out. That’s when they moved the cave–patch 2.4. The changes that they did make in Classic were mainly due to exploits.
So your argument is that the 2007 meta in which horde didn’t defend (something like 35-40 horde on offense vs 20-25 alliance on offense, 15-20 alliance on defense) is relevant today.
But that’s a false argument because horde don’t play that way in 2020.
Yes, if horde play no defense, we’ll lose every game because alliance can split up their team and just leave a half their team to defend the bridge while the other half of the team goes for the win…
I think most alliance can acknowledge that the bridge (especially with the glitches fixed) is a formidable defensive chokepoint for a last stand, and is certainly stronger than horde defensive positions in FW village.
But, if horde plays defense at IB GY and FW GY, the alliance advantages don’t come into play. They key difference between 2020 and 2007 is that the horde makes sure to prevent any alliance offense from gaining a foothold and then wiping the horde south of IWB to choke the whole team in the north.
At that point, the bridge defense does nothing. I fully realize that the bridge choke may become a problem if the cave situation changes and alliance can generate offense.
But that’s arguably a better problem to have than what we have now.
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You realize that it literally didn’t, right? Unfortunately, on private servers it was played EXACTLY the same way as original vanilla.
We deserve the 1% win ratio. We have reaped what we have sown. We made this meta by being selfish toddlers.
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You literally never capped it in AV until the 2.4 change BECAUSE IT WENT TO REINFORCEMENTS CHANGING HOW THE BG IS PLAYED
You can not and should not compare AV post 2.3 to AV pre 2.3. They are different games entirely.
Also, the line you quote are the same things people complain about on these forums daily. AFKers, slow mounts etc;
I guess it’s easier to believe that you don’t control the outcome of the situation that you created rather than just admit that we done messed up.
My argument is that a BG does NOT need to be changed because it is now being played in a way that wasn’t intended due to:
-
Ally premades forcing this to become the strat
-
Choosing the most boring iteration of AV during the vanilla period
Why should Blizzard pick up the milk we spilled and are crying over? If we had just stuck to not premading, and zerging we’d all be lazily yawning in our unremarkable AVs, winning 60-70% of them.
This is why alliance can’t have nice things.
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WoW you really have no idea about anything you are talking about.
reinforcements did not change the map advantage at all, they just took the advantage that was already there and made it much more obvious. which makes sense since it didn’t change the map at all, so turtling IBGY was able to outright win the game because of how strong a defense it was. That defense is still there in all versions before it.
The line I quoted shows that in order for horde to lose they have to not defend, when you have most of your team AFK or fishing or lvl 52 you can get overpowered like everyone keeps saying. So your whole defense about Alliance winning historically falls apart because it was due to Horde not taking abusing the advantages they have and you just helped to show that.
I guess its easier to be a map denier than spend an ounce of brain power to examine the evidence and realize that its not that hard to see how many advantages the horde have in AV.
again follow your own advice…
because one of us has facts on our side and its not you.
6 Likes
Nothing needs to be addressed here. This is 1.12 AV. This is authentic. This is why Classic exists.
This topic is just the current flavor of the month QQ. It’ll get replaced by some new complaint like the hundred other “Classic will die if Blizzard doesn’t change this” threads. Classic survived them all, as it will this.
This has been going on for the better part of 5 months…rofl.
Also if this is classic and nothing should change then why did they change Alliance premading??
We pre-maded in Vanilla. So it should of stayed the same right?
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So the moment Horde defends, which they do every time… then what? Zerging is just a massive gamble and only hastens Alliance defeat on the very slim chance no Horde bother to fracture the offensive push while the nearest res location is SHGY, assuming it is still available by the time Alliance start taking IB and beyond.
So go for FWGY with even less reinforcement should any Ally die? Brilliant
Repeating it like this doesn’t make your argument better.
Grandly failing at reading comprehension I see. Operative word is “dramatic” and the very same moronic plays by Horde do not result in losses for them, hence the problem. Badly played Horde can dominate well played Alliance due to the map imbalances.
Why would I care about the tactics of Horde from 13+ years ago when they aren’t doing that now?
2007
Yeah, mate, I’ll be sure to take those to heart! Maybe while we’re at it I can demand everyone wear 200+ FR on Ragnaros so I can tell everyone that no-submerge is a fool that doesn’t know what they’re talking about!
BETTER SPAM FEINT EVERYONE CUZ THAT’S WHAT THE GUIDES SAID!!!
No one cares what theft servers did as they were just slaves to the nonsense “strategies” of the past themselves. Also mostly a bunch of people screwing around because theft servers.
None of this is relevant.
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I mean yes, that’s probably true. I would agree that the horde meta was developed as a response to premades, and that this scorched earth meta would likely have not come about naturally. There was no real reason for horde to take such a strong defensive position (which basically started out as turtling) otherwise except to deal with overwhelming alliance premades that went straight to Hut/Drek.
But I don’t see how it is a reasonable answer to say “just leave it” now that we are in this position.
Regardless of how the horde meta developed, horde basically discovered how easy it is to prevent alliance from gaining any offensive GY. This detail was always hidden in the AV map due to 3 factors: how close the cave is to IB GY, the fact that it’s the 2nd spawn after IB GY is soft capped, and 2x the people can rez in the cave.
The fact that horde didn’t use this strategy in 2007 is irrelevant to our discussions now that horde is actually using it.
And that means we have an unplayable BG on our hands because there’s no real offensive strategy for alliance unless horde stop playing scorched earth.
But what incentive is there for horde to play anything other than scorched earth with 90 minute queues? And so alliance rankers/PVPers don’t queue, which means the queues stay too long to change the meta. It’s a chicken and egg problem now that we’re here. Doesn’t matter how the meta developed, it’s here, and I think we’re at the point where AV changes are needed.
8 Likes