Roughly evenly matched up teams in terms of high rankers (R10+), composition, gear, similar number of <60s, etc.
Pretty much only see that in AV weekends now.
Because you can’t explain what other difference exists when comparing the non-mirror bg (AV) to the mirror maps (WSG/AB).
Map imbalance leads to player apathy. It would happen in any faction-based game where one faction has a clear advantage in a map over the other.
My win rate jumps from somewhere around 50-50 in pug v pug AB/WSG to 95-99% when I go to AV.
Like seriously, it’s not hard to understand. If horde was on the north side of the map, I would never queue AV. Glad I’ve never played alliance.
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After it’s been clearly demonstrated it’s not, yes.
The win rates in other BG’s shows that alliance are not simply worse at pvp and that win rates only go up slightly on AV weekend when the seriously alliance step into AV shows it’s not primarily a player attitude issue in AV.
Plus as he’s already admitted that the map should be fixed continuing to use this thread as a platform to bash alliance in AV is simply trolling. At least some of the other people are still pretending it’s not a map issue.
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You mean rankers that include a great many who got such ranks by AFKing in AV?
We’ve seen earlier that things like rezzes are scoffed at, what “composition” are you implying would be needed?
Alliance are favored in PVE. If they are not geared, what the hell have they been doing?
I would support the separation of L51-59 and L60 into their own brackets. That said, sub L60s is not exclusive to alliance, and effort is not based on level. Most all AFKers that I gank in AV are L60.
This has been explained over and over and over. Have you actually been reading your thread?
We horde who actually played AV throughout vanilla dealt with alliance dominating the BG. Somehow we managed to not join the BG and simply mill about at a single GY, like most alliance are doing.
AGAIN, this has been explained over and over.
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many alliance agree that the only reason alliance loses so much is because of bad mentalities. they’ve even posted in this very thread and other av threads, but once again, the echo chamber tries to DISCREDIT THEM, drown them out, and gaslight them.
it is obvious to me that the echo chamber’s agenda is that they want to win but they dont want to put forth effort, so rather than working hard to overcome the horde strategy they petition to get the map changed and disingenuosly overexagerate the “horde advantage”
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What is it that makes you ignore the reason for this repeatedly?
Guy who has hundreds of posts in the pre AV threads, strongly arguing for the 1.12 AV version we ended up with, now calling other people trolls. Priceless.
We’ve WELL over 2000 post threads pleading with blizzard to not use 1.12 for a litany of reasons, and you fought tooth and nail against them. Now you have the absolute GALL to act like blizzard should cater to your wishes because you do not like the very version of the BG that you fought/trolled for with such passion.
How ANYONE takes you seriously is beyond me. Much less blizzard, after they saw how you trolled the hell out of anti 1.12 AV players.
And? Still doesnt explain those loss rates. All it says is to me is that the horde can reach SF faster but reaching SF faster doesnt guarantee free AV wins so its not the big hammer you want it to be. AV isnt on a timer either - it goes until one team kills the other teams boss. SF is one tiny part of that and sometimes its flat out optional depending on the game.
One of the comments on that video nailed it: its not hard capped - thats an invitation to pvp.
Now we all know you have an extra 20 seconds to survey the scene and prepare your counterattack - Or do you trickle in 2-3 at a time while your healers are LOS and under siege?
And even then its not really clear why the horde going SF means you have to go SF at the same stage in the game moments apart from each other. Youre choosing to do that knowing the horde is more than like already there (and they are, like 2 of them while the rest harangue alliance trying to run by without a fight).
Like I said, AV is quirky like that. Sometimes the spawn infuriates you and sometimes it puts you at the GY that was seconds away from being ninja’d. The point wasnt for it to make complete sense but for it to have appeal by creating pvp opportunities at dozens of locations around the map.
The alliance have always enjoyed playing the pve race game, classic is no exception. The horde have always been better off turtling so they do in lieu of 2 hour queues and thus the map becomes a real problem for you when the horde commit to defense. Not just any defense either - it has to be somewhat competent - or full of mages.
AV as its currently implemented should be a one to two hour game if both sides got a grip. Queue times have pretty much insured alliance reppers arent gonna be patient team players - its all about efficiency in grinding rep, not winning. Which can be observed all throughout this games history right on through to today and classic. If losing fast is the best hph, thats what happens.
Your faction doesnt share your enthusiasm for AV and the map is probably the least of your problems. Just because you care doesnt mean everyone else does.
So the issue is that the longer the game last the more it favors horde. If alliance hard turtle at SHGY sure they can hold it for awhile, but then it comes down to who summons their guy first. And the horde have an easier summon thanks to their summon location plus the tree guy bugs out most of the time when summoned anyways.
Rankers are such a small fraction of the population that they DO NOT MATTER.
you usually have about double the number of sub 60 chars in any given AV then people rank 11+ and 1 sub 60 is FAR more detrimental than any 1 ranker is beneficial. So no rankers would not account for the map disparity, also if all it took was rankers to queue to get to even a 40% winrate that would be enough hph to make them queue, so no rankers don’t make much difference.
you mean OOC rezzes that require 10 seconds out of combat to get 1 rez off that puts people at next to no health+mana, which is almost impossible to do on a contested flag? Ya sorry we don’t let you make fantasy arguments about how 1 rez will save a team from constant waves of reinforcements from a GY.
Yes they are, which is usually why Alliance tend to be better geared than Horde and yet they still lose.
Have you? because you seem to be unable to comprehend you have never made a SINGLE valid argument that has not been debunked or pointed out how irrelevant it is, and yet you have never once been able to debunk a single actual argument about the map… seems you are the one that needs to learn to read.
No you did not, because Alliance did not dominate in vanilla, they had a slight advantage because gear disparity was MUCH larger in vanilla because people were bad and alliance had a MUCH easier time gearing up in raids. That combined with the fact that Horde had faster queues and so did not need to play defense and had A LOT of people who were just in AV to herb/fish on the horde. Led to a lot of horde matches thrown, however even then Alliance would still win a decent number of games prob 30-40%.
Take your own advice, this has all been explained to you ad nausem and yet you continue to take a stance that requires the levels of denialism that it takes for someone to call the earth flat. THAT is what makes you a troll, not your position but your refusal to listen to evidence to change that opinion to match reality.
How odd. I thought both factions had druids. 
Oh look, running back to the horde-everywhere-at-all-times fallacy.
Then why are you losing to “constant waves” coming from GYs?
You’ve never debunked a single thing. You’ve expressed feels and complaints. None of which is responsible for an alleged 99% loss rate.
Sorry hon, they did, and even blizzard said as much.
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I shouldn’t have to explain this to you, but horde can tell which direction alliance are going from their position in FoS. If alliance go toward SHB, so do horde. If alliance go to SFGY so do horde.
I’m going to end this discussion here because it’s clear to me your intent is more about belittling players than discussing an actual solution to a problem that has negative consequences to both factions.
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30m cd, on the rarest class by far… you really do grasp at straws…
just because you are too dumb to understand basic strategy talk does not mean the horde are everywhere or that it is a fallacy. The horde have no need to play defense till something gets softcapped because softcapping anything in the south does NOTHING, then they can send a small team south to counter it. because reacting to things that are announced the second they happen is easy.
10 people on defense will easily overwhelm a team of 20 alliance on offense if they are anywhere close to similiar geared.
Slightly better gear =/= invincible you troll.
just because you are too dumb to understand that you have been debunked does not mean they were not debunked. EVERY claim you have made is either irrelevant(ram team 7) or debunked(skipping IBGY strat, SPGY is the same as IBGY, alliance winrate in vanilla)
No alliance did not, it was never assumed that you would lose every game as horde, and Blizz has NEVER said what the winrates were in vanilla. So more lies.
Way to go troll you just proved you can do nothing but lie.
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AV is a big map, with lots of players and lots going on and lots to do. I dont think the very specific scenario where zerg on zerg pvp favoring the defensive team in their territory being a massive pita for the travelling offensive team requires a ideological fix while we crusade on to utopiaville.
When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it the map is a problem for you because the horde play defense and thats an advantage for the horde because you dont.
The map might be large but not all areas of it are equally relevant(or even equally accessible at all times). SHGY usually ends up being the initial key point on the map unless it actually is a pure zerg. This is because if it gets soft capped before alliance have a southern GY hard capped the game is almost certainly over at that point.
The cave rez makes it a very effective strategy for horde to let IBGY soft cap if it means they soft cap SHGY. Alliance simply do not have an equivalent strat as they have to prevent SHGY from soft capping while getting a hard cap somewhere south. Now sure alliance can hard turtle at SHGY but as I explained that only works until horde summon the ice guy.
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So what? Why is this a problem in a massive pvp battleground? Why is it the hordes fault that you think a zerg run down one of the sidelines where horde are looking for you is a terrific strat? Why is it the maps fault that youre trying to race past and theyre not letting you? Why cant you dream up of literally anything else to do?
And Im not trying to belittle you or anyone. I think youre honestly convinced that the maps the problem, I am not attacking that position. I, however, am not convinced. There’s just too many assumptions at work to take it as seriously as you think I should.
When horde were getting their butts handed to them in AV by premades and queues starting stretching to 25-30 min an amazing thing happened. The horde adapted. Some of my best classic moments as of now are wrecking the drek pull and repeatedly wiping premades in the base until they left the bg.
You’re not going to see that from alliance with 3 min queues in an efficiency or bust meta. Thats just how it is.
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We have looked at lots of different strats the problem is none of them work against a simple horde defense.
If you would care to share some great strat we would love to hear it, unfortunately NOT 1 person who claims the map is fine has come up with a valid strat to beat an IBGY defense.
THAT is the problem, if the horde opt to defend at IBGY and south they can easily hold with 20 people against a team of 40 on the alliance because they rez 3x as often. THAT is the cause of the map imbalance, which leads to the apathy which is why its a 99% winrate for the horde.
just because you refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that there is no way for a team of alliance to beat even a slightly worse horde team if that team just uses a basic strategy of defend the south.
Now to counter the trolls “arguments” because its all they have. If we cannot beat a defense at IBGY where its just a 3 to 1 rez advantage, if we skip that GY they rez advantage only gets FAR worse, so skipping IBGY is just stupid. And the game does not end at IBGY but if you do not take IBGY you will not be able to mount any kind of push on Drek, however like I said even a much smaller force can easily recapture IBGY which means they need to defense there, then they can cap SHGY with the ice guy because he spawns on the horde side of the FoS over a cliff and out of LoS of the alliance instead of right in front of the Horde GY like Ivus does for the alliance.
So the fact that you are “not convinced” just means you are unable to do basic math and understand that 3 > 1, if you can grasp that simple concept you can understand the map problem.
Horde were NEVER getting there butts handed to them in AV in classic, at the start everyone was using a rush meta which had near a 50/50 winrate because its a straight rush. However alliance were able to premade and send in proper comps with good gear those teams had an advantage which let them have about a 70-90% winrate over pugs which is oddly lower than the premade vs pug winrate you see in AB/WSG… sure there were the top end premades that had a 90% winrate but those were invite only, required good gear, consumables, epic mounts, carrot+riding+spurs, etc they were the 1% of the alliance and using them to justify anything like what is happening now is just ridiculous, it would be like using Bezos to show that everyone is fine economically right now just look at how well he is doing. Also they made changes to vanilla in a matter of weeks to fix that issue with the premading when the winrates were closer to 50% then they were to the current winrates which we have had for MONTHS.
And no the premades were not stopped because of the harm they did to alliance pugs, that was a separate bug which blizz acknowledged and fixed alongside the premade removal, that change without the removal of premades would also have stopped the problem.
But you know, if you had actually read this thread you would know all of this because this has all been said before.
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The map does have GY selection issues, but players can adapt to that.
For example dieing at or near the bridge, players can learn where to die to Rez at GY or cave. Many alliance die in spots that Rez them at the cave and don’t even think to use their trinket, many moan and groan about how unfair it is but don’t bother to learn the Rez lines.
Another example is assaulting SFGY if alliance assault it from it’s southern ramp, they can move south when they are about to die and try to hit the Rez line that will put them at SHGY instead of ASGY.
Alliance refusing to adapt is a problem, they are playing AV classic as if the GY logic follows the rules of AV retail. It doesn’t. This contributes to the loss rate that isn’t solely a map issue as the players have options to overcome it.
Alliance having an infestation of rep farm pve simulation players, leeches, afk, and levelers is also not a map issue.
The skill difference outside of AV weekend is also not a map issue, it’s an HPH issue. Premades go elsewhere because they can’t premade AV, this means they would have a 50/50 chance to win with 5 man groups instead of being able to pug stomp for fast easy wins. And the games would be to long to be effective HPH.
There are many other reasons contributing to the 99% loss rate but you want to blame everything on the map, which based on recent AV weekend data (from multiple sources, not just Scot), would only be contributing to a 40/60 win rate, not a 1/99.
You keep trying to exaggerate the map imbalance, if blizzard was to believe your views then horde should have 20 players vs 40 alliance because somehow we end up with 80+horde players every game…
Wow lol. You clearly said not to go to SF if horde are there so I explained to you that wherever we go, there will be horde and wherever we go, IBGY or SFGY, we will have to deal with rez “quirks” that disadvantage alliance and benefit horde. I’m sure you’ll attribute this to apathy and depression too.
You’re definitely here to belittle players who are “too depressed” to compete, apathetic, don’t dismount to fight. None of that has a darn thing to do with quirky gy rez or 20 second headstarts. Until you can put aside the stereotype you’ve placed on alliance players and discuss actual map flaws, there can be no good faith discussion with you on AV map imbalance.
Most alliance players who want to win aren’t coming back to a map where you can massively outplay your opponents and still lose more often than not.
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Usually by just saying “I disagree, git gud” and offering no other substantive value… and also as a sub-60 or not even a Classic character. Undermines the point that from experience AV is primarily a player driven problem when people show zero investment in experiencing the BG in question.
Does nothing, and yet also does something.
Behold, the very ad homs that makes blizzard ignore these threads.
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