Authentic ICC with #somechanges

WoW Classic Wrath of the Lich King Classic Discussion
26

Damn dude, it’s almost like it’s a full BiS projection. Needing a trinket that no one else wants and guaranteed set bonuses sure is a rough place to be.

With a legendary we would be middle of the pack at best.

Like DK’s are projected to be?

Our cooldowns would not save us, as most raids already have 4-5 of these cooldowns from their holy/prot paladins.

That’s not what the dev statement said when it recognised the value of Ret’s utility. Further, Ret was already taken on Uld prog for difficult fights (Algalon) precisely due to that utility.

The big thing is that Ret without these buffs in ICC would be in a far different place to where Ret was in Ulduar when the buffs were designed.

Nah, taking DSac is a choice, you always have the AM spec open to be run. The only reason you’d drop 400 DPS would be if that is a better outcome for the raid on the fight. Aka this doesn’t reduce your contribution but rather increases it.

Daily reminder that DSac was nerfed in MoP for being overpowered in an era when every healer had strong raid cooldowns.

I wish people would stop conflating Feral and Retribution DPS as both being “too OP” because Feral is a tier above us and everyone else, besides Mage, these are 2 extremely different scenarios.

It’s the same scenario, classes that were quite bad in Ulduar getting buffs for that tier, which see them top tier and above lots of other classes in ICC.

This feedback is all centered around the following philosophy from the devs:
Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:

While you say this has been rehashed multiple times on this forum, you have never engaged with this statement.

Ret and Feral shouldn’t be this high on the meters in the tier they were originally supposedly balanced around. Blizzard have said that relative scaling staying roughly the same is important to them, players are asking for that to be addressed.

Why shouldn’t class balance be on the table as far as changes go, with all the other changes that’ve been made to bosses, raids, items, etc?

This is a what if about resources the dev team clearly doesn’t have. As it stands Ret and Feral are clear outliers and go against what Blizzard have said about not wanting to make significant changes.

Finally, touching back on the utility point:

What exactly do you think changed from Blizzard saying Ret’s overall strength was fine when they were at the bottom with Fury in Ulduar? Ret has exactly the same utility as it did in P2 and it will likely be more important as ICC appears to be more difficult.

Note: while this post is mostly focusing on Ret, as you say Feral is the larger offender.

2 Likes
27

Context matters, and you are doing your best to take what they said completely out of context in order to justify your agenda.

I do agree that Ret will be a little too high on dps, but only 2 or 3 months into the phase. Maybe deserving a nerf or revert of this change when cata prepatch comes (If the cata class changes don’t nerf it already)

28

Then link the context that you believe matters, I am hardly hiding their post.

29

This is a very long post of nothing.

30

You mean the class that sat high and mighty at the top of the dps meter for… THE ENTIRE EXPANSION SO FAR?
0 sympathy.

Same goes for when Warriors complain, the class that was miles ahead as top dps in Classic and still incredibly powerful in TBC often times #1 in the later half.
0 sympathy.

So why is it an issue if different classes gets the spotlight?

Do you need to look at Classic and TBC’s numbers for Ret and Feral?
Classic they were non-existent, TBC they were decent single target but had 0 cleave whatsoever.

It’s not like Feral and Ret are so far ahead that it’ll lead to massive spec stacking like Classic Fury and p1-3 UH DKs

2 Likes
31

It was in my post?

1 Like
32

Cool, so other than Blizzard not knowing what they want. I don’t care about that.

Why is it an issue TO YOU if different classes get the spotlight.

33

Why is it an issue TO YOU if different classes get the spotlight.

Because it’s classic? This is a reasonably solved game and Blizzard doesn’t have the time nor the resources to actually balance 30 specs. I further don’t really believe that an attempt to actually balance the whole game would be a better outcome than just “it is what it is”.

Ret and Feral are in a far different spot in ICC than they were in Uld, the buffs no longer make sense. Blizzard shouldn’t just have large buffs to 2 specs and not actively balance the others.

However when Blizzard makes such a long post about justifying why they are buffing a class, then I expect we should engage with their reasoning.

1 Like
34

The classes do scale as you mostly would expect them too.

This does not mean “Scale relatively to their position in a tier ranking list”.

It means that the class scales in the same way, that if a piece of gear was good for you back then, the same piece should be just as good.

Ret wasn’t that powerful in Ulduar dps wise. They wanted to stay true to that and succeeded, the buff did not make them too powerful.

Ret was powerful in ICC, and they will be today. Their statement has everything to do with how character’s scale with themselves, and nothing to do with how they scale relative to other classes.

This is what you are taking out of context. Aggrend is clearly referring to Phase 2 and Phase 2 only.

1 Like
35

As someone who has basically played since Vanilla, I’ve enjoyed the adjustments. Feel free to hit up Classic Era if it’s too hard/confusing for ya. Many Classic Andy’s went straight back to Era when prenerf Ulduar kicked their a$$.

36

Yes because it’s only 2 specs that have had large buffs given to them.

There’s a certain irony to you complaining about a lack of context only to post even smaller parts of the quote.

For reference, the actual quote:

Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:

It is explicitly about how classes scale relative to each other and doesn’t mention anything about specific pieces of gear.

This goes for every class except for the 2 that received 10%+ buffs that put them right up the top of the meters.

Ret (and Feral) aren’t anywhere near where they were in Ulduar, the buffs should be reverted as they have significantly impacted the relative scaling of classes.

The full quote once more:

Continuing the discussion from Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:

Tell me, where is this specific to phase 2? Contrast this to other parts of the post that do talk about current (Ulduar at the time) balance, or other parts that talk about later phases.

3 Likes
37

At the end of the day none of this matters.

Ret and feral are in great spots when you look at them in phase 3 bis. (Phase 4 bis numbers do not matter because the game is over by then anyway)

The most important thing for phase 4 is the gear you have for ICC progression. Things are in a great spot right now, and anything done to upset that is detrimental and hurts the game.

If we want to nerf them in phase 5 because they are beating the next closest classes by 10% or more, go for it.

I just hope that blizzard is listening to the rational takes about progression and not listening to the crying and winging (From a very small amount of people complaining that their top 5 class isn’t top 1 as ironic as that is) about dps numbers in gear that people will not have for months on end.

38

I would support Ruby Sanctum being released ~6 weeks into ICC and have that coincide with a 5% physical damage nerf to the Feral Glyph.

This way…

  1. Speedruns will just be getting started and won’t be dominated by 4+ feral cats
  2. ICC progression will get a slight boost
39

But this is the question.
Speedruns are always dominated by class stacking so why does it matter if it’s Ferals vs the Unholy DK meta or the Affliction Lock meta, or the probably Fire Mages meta or the Classic 25+ Fury Warrior meta
Like why is it bad that it’s Ferals

40

Because why should ferals get a 10%+ damage increase but the other specs don’t?

You realise this is Classic?

1 Like
41

And Blizzard has already said they gave up on #Nochanges so that’s irrelevant.

If you want to argue about the worse specs getting buffed along with Ferals and Rets, sure I’d agree with that.

But most of the time this argument comes from Fury Warriors being mad they are only #3 instead of #2.

Should we nerf Fire Mages? They are above Feral and weren’t even buffed.

1 Like
42

This is why I think you don’t even read threads you’re commenting in.

No one is calling for fire mage nerfs because they didn’t receive poorly thought-out buffs.

2 Likes
43

This thread is people whining that Ferals (and a lesser extent Ret) are too good because of their buff.

But if the reason the buffs are “bad” is because it made Feral too good, then by that logic a spec that is better should get nerfed if Feral’s buffs are reverted/nerfed for being too good. Literally anything else means you’re against change for the sake of being against change.

44

Or - and stick with me here - or we are playing a game that is 15 years old and people have expectations about how classes work. Nerfs would go down very poorly in this game.

So feral being on top is viewed as “unfair” whereas people accept fire mages pumping because that’s just what Wrath is.

I am in the camp of viewing this buffs as unfair because they only made adjustments to these two specs.

2 Likes
45