Yup, hate all the stupid changes but my guild still needs me and I don’t wanna bail on them till we finish. This was suppose to be a rerelease of the expansions “as they were at the time” not with a bunch of stupid changes forced in because some dev needs to feed his ego and feel important.
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Explain where they promised you this? That’s right, they didn’t.
The only time they “promised” that was for Vanilla Classic, which aside from some small changes, was largely accurate to how it would have been with end of expansion balancing patch.
They didn’t even plan to recreate TBC/WOTLK when they made Classic. So anything beyond Vanilla Classic was not promised to you in any way, shape or form.
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Without the Paladin changes, Retribution would be almost the single worst single-target DPS without a legendary in full ICC bis with TAJ, both set bonuses, according to the sim. With a legendary we would be middle of the pack at best. Our cooldowns would not save us, as most raids already have 4-5 of these cooldowns from their holy/prot paladins. This is like the 10th thread already where this has all been rehashed over and over.
And when we spec DSAC to get that cooldown, we lose like 400 DPS anyway, so we are already taxed.
Feral is another story, but we don’t really know how accurate any of these sims are, and shouldn’t really be making class balance discussions based on them anyway, we should wait for real log data or at least more PTR (but the PTR is likely not enough data, as most will not be able to complete tier set) if you were concerned about Feral being stacked in ICC, then you could bring their DPS down in line with Fury/Ret/MM/Spriest etc instead of being in a tier above everyone, and tied-ish with Fire Mage, but then you just end up with Fire Mage being the only S+ tier class and now you have a Fire Mage stacking thing going on.
I wish people would stop conflating Feral and Retribution DPS as both being “too OP” because Feral is a tier above us and everyone else, besides Mage, these are 2 extremely different scenarios. Retribution isn’t going to be stacked or affect anyone’s represenation, but Feral is in a position to be stacked at the moment.
Explain why it’s an issue for Retribution to be where it is, if Retribution isn’t going to be stacked and isn’t going to affect class representation for anyone else, then what’s the real issue here? You need to justify a nerf, without just saying “because that’s where they are supposed to be”.
Why shouldn’t class balance be on the table as far as changes go, with all the other changes that’ve been made to bosses, raids, items, etc? Especially when we are on the final patch, which is a bigger deal for WOTLK than other expansions, because of how many changes were made from Naxx to ICC over WOTLK’s timeline, you end up with everything from Naxx to TOGC being different than it was in 2010, just by being on the final patch talents etc. We already were not “blizzlike” just by having the final patch be the one from the start. This affected Ret Paladins especially bad, as we were tuned around TAJ and our set bonuses, and without those, we were just so so bad. Our utility wasn’t enough to keep us getting dropped pre-buff, which is why they changed their minds on the buff.
Just piggybacking off what my friend Vilena said, but, Classic has not been authentic since Day 1. It is a custom version of older expansions, and even in Vanilla it varied heavily from the actual Vanilla experience, largely for the better. #nochanges is not better just because it is #nochanges, it can only be better if the changes are justifiably worse than what came before. How would removing Ret Paladin buffs improve the game in a quantifiable way, for anyone? And not just make people have a lot less fun playing the class for no real reason.
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Moving into Cataclysm, I really hope for Devs to go forward with #MOREChanges and actually go ham on balancing.
This is categorically false.
Damn dude, it’s almost like it’s a full BiS projection. Needing a trinket that no one else wants and guaranteed set bonuses sure is a rough place to be.
With a legendary we would be middle of the pack at best.
Like DK’s are projected to be?
Our cooldowns would not save us, as most raids already have 4-5 of these cooldowns from their holy/prot paladins.
That’s not what the dev statement said when it recognised the value of Ret’s utility. Further, Ret was already taken on Uld prog for difficult fights (Algalon) precisely due to that utility.
The big thing is that Ret without these buffs in ICC would be in a far different place to where Ret was in Ulduar when the buffs were designed.
Nah, taking DSac is a choice, you always have the AM spec open to be run. The only reason you’d drop 400 DPS would be if that is a better outcome for the raid on the fight. Aka this doesn’t reduce your contribution but rather increases it.
Daily reminder that DSac was nerfed in MoP for being overpowered in an era when every healer had strong raid cooldowns.
I wish people would stop conflating Feral and Retribution DPS as both being “too OP” because Feral is a tier above us and everyone else, besides Mage, these are 2 extremely different scenarios.
It’s the same scenario, classes that were quite bad in Ulduar getting buffs for that tier, which see them top tier and above lots of other classes in ICC.
This feedback is all centered around the following philosophy from the devs:
Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:
While you say this has been rehashed multiple times on this forum, you have never engaged with this statement.
Ret and Feral shouldn’t be this high on the meters in the tier they were originally supposedly balanced around. Blizzard have said that relative scaling staying roughly the same is important to them, players are asking for that to be addressed.
Why shouldn’t class balance be on the table as far as changes go, with all the other changes that’ve been made to bosses, raids, items, etc?
This is a what if about resources the dev team clearly doesn’t have. As it stands Ret and Feral are clear outliers and go against what Blizzard have said about not wanting to make significant changes.
Finally, touching back on the utility point:
What exactly do you think changed from Blizzard saying Ret’s overall strength was fine when they were at the bottom with Fury in Ulduar? Ret has exactly the same utility as it did in P2 and it will likely be more important as ICC appears to be more difficult.
Note: while this post is mostly focusing on Ret, as you say Feral is the larger offender.
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Context matters, and you are doing your best to take what they said completely out of context in order to justify your agenda.
I do agree that Ret will be a little too high on dps, but only 2 or 3 months into the phase. Maybe deserving a nerf or revert of this change when cata prepatch comes (If the cata class changes don’t nerf it already)
Then link the context that you believe matters, I am hardly hiding their post.
This is a very long post of nothing.
You mean the class that sat high and mighty at the top of the dps meter for… THE ENTIRE EXPANSION SO FAR?
0 sympathy.
Same goes for when Warriors complain, the class that was miles ahead as top dps in Classic and still incredibly powerful in TBC often times #1 in the later half.
0 sympathy.
So why is it an issue if different classes gets the spotlight?
Do you need to look at Classic and TBC’s numbers for Ret and Feral?
Classic they were non-existent, TBC they were decent single target but had 0 cleave whatsoever.
It’s not like Feral and Ret are so far ahead that it’ll lead to massive spec stacking like Classic Fury and p1-3 UH DKs
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It was in my post?
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Cool, so other than Blizzard not knowing what they want. I don’t care about that.
Why is it an issue TO YOU if different classes get the spotlight.
Why is it an issue TO YOU if different classes get the spotlight.
Because it’s classic? This is a reasonably solved game and Blizzard doesn’t have the time nor the resources to actually balance 30 specs. I further don’t really believe that an attempt to actually balance the whole game would be a better outcome than just “it is what it is”.
Ret and Feral are in a far different spot in ICC than they were in Uld, the buffs no longer make sense. Blizzard shouldn’t just have large buffs to 2 specs and not actively balance the others.
However when Blizzard makes such a long post about justifying why they are buffing a class, then I expect we should engage with their reasoning.
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The classes do scale as you mostly would expect them too.
This does not mean “Scale relatively to their position in a tier ranking list”.
It means that the class scales in the same way, that if a piece of gear was good for you back then, the same piece should be just as good.
Ret wasn’t that powerful in Ulduar dps wise. They wanted to stay true to that and succeeded, the buff did not make them too powerful.
Ret was powerful in ICC, and they will be today. Their statement has everything to do with how character’s scale with themselves, and nothing to do with how they scale relative to other classes.
This is what you are taking out of context. Aggrend is clearly referring to Phase 2 and Phase 2 only.
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As someone who has basically played since Vanilla, I’ve enjoyed the adjustments. Feel free to hit up Classic Era if it’s too hard/confusing for ya. Many Classic Andy’s went straight back to Era when prenerf Ulduar kicked their a$$.
Yes because it’s only 2 specs that have had large buffs given to them.
There’s a certain irony to you complaining about a lack of context only to post even smaller parts of the quote.
For reference, the actual quote:
Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:
It is explicitly about how classes scale relative to each other and doesn’t mention anything about specific pieces of gear.
This goes for every class except for the 2 that received 10%+ buffs that put them right up the top of the meters.
Ret (and Feral) aren’t anywhere near where they were in Ulduar, the buffs should be reverted as they have significantly impacted the relative scaling of classes.
The full quote once more:
Continuing the discussion from Upcoming Adjustments to Retribution Paladins:
Tell me, where is this specific to phase 2? Contrast this to other parts of the post that do talk about current (Ulduar at the time) balance, or other parts that talk about later phases.
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At the end of the day none of this matters.
Ret and feral are in great spots when you look at them in phase 3 bis. (Phase 4 bis numbers do not matter because the game is over by then anyway)
The most important thing for phase 4 is the gear you have for ICC progression. Things are in a great spot right now, and anything done to upset that is detrimental and hurts the game.
If we want to nerf them in phase 5 because they are beating the next closest classes by 10% or more, go for it.
I just hope that blizzard is listening to the rational takes about progression and not listening to the crying and winging (From a very small amount of people complaining that their top 5 class isn’t top 1 as ironic as that is) about dps numbers in gear that people will not have for months on end.
I would support Ruby Sanctum being released ~6 weeks into ICC and have that coincide with a 5% physical damage nerf to the Feral Glyph.
This way…
- Speedruns will just be getting started and won’t be dominated by 4+ feral cats
- ICC progression will get a slight boost
But this is the question.
Speedruns are always dominated by class stacking so why does it matter if it’s Ferals vs the Unholy DK meta or the Affliction Lock meta, or the probably Fire Mages meta or the Classic 25+ Fury Warrior meta
Like why is it bad that it’s Ferals
Because why should ferals get a 10%+ damage increase but the other specs don’t?
You realise this is Classic?
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