As a returning player, the playerbase has once again optimized the fun out of the game

I’ve played classic all throughout it’s lifespan since it’s release up until ICC. After returning to classic era I’ve come to the conclusion that the playerbase has once again optimized the fun out of the game, and that some tweaks would improve it’s longevity and enjoyability to new and returning players

To give some background I started playing classic shortly after it’s release, have two rank 14 chracters that I farmed Naxx on during phase 6, and have been in a range of guilds of varying quality. This is my favorite game ever, with vanilla being my favorite iteration of it. So this is my appeal to reason to protect my favorite game from dying. It’s very lengthy so be warned.

While Vanilla Classic WoW is my favorite game ever, the game is old. And inevitably ripe for exploitation at the hands of a playerbase which will always take the path of least resistance and instant gratification over approaches that protect the game’s longevity and approachability. Every playerbase does this and Classic WoW’s is no different. There are a couple of ways I mainly see this made manifest in Classic Era :

1: The Alterac Valley meta. For players who want to rank, the pvp meta has reached the zenith of it’s evolution, which is unfortunately spamming AV to maximize honor per hour and ignoring the other battlegrounds to the point that they are completely dead. Putting aside which battleground you prefer, I think it’s safe to say that the game is being undermined by having multiple fun battlegrounds be unplayable due to low player count caused by a lack of incentive to play them. Thankfully the solution here is simple and even multiple approaches could work. The issue could be solved by extending the BG weekends of WSG and AB and maybe adding more bonus honor to them on top of that.

Really it doesn’t matter how, but the endpoint just needs to be that AB and WSG offer a comparable amount of honor to AV. It’s also important to take into account the fact that AB and WSG also allow premades, and maybe some incentive should be given that makes it where getting stomped by a 10 man premade still comes with the silver lining of rewarding the player rather than make them fustrated and only want to queu AV. These changes would be mild in comparison to the ones already made regarding ranking, and I don’t even think anyone would oppose them. Anyone who likes PVP in wow classic would probably agree that WSG and AB being completely dead is a bad thing and that my proposed tweaks to rectify this are reasonable.

2: The GDKP meta. This problem is far more glaring in my opinion. In original classic there were definitely GDKPs but the majority of the raiding scene was guilds with soft reserve or loot council distribution systems. Everyone had the option to pick and choose how they wanted to gear their character. I’m not going to talk in depth about how the GDKP meta incentivises gold buying and botting and kills the social spaces offered by guilds as that’s been done to death. But I will say that this meta has become so pervasive that it seems most players do not have a choice in how they gear their character.

There are obvious advantages to GDKPs, such as the fact that they encourage people who don’t need gear on characters to continue running content on said characters. Or the fact that they are ultimately a fair and unbiased system that isn’t RNG based so long as you look at them exlusively within the confines of the raid they are used. For these reasons I’m torn on wether I want to advocate for banning them. However, the GDKP loot distribution system comes with MANY drawbacks that negatively impact the game at large outside the confines of the raids in which they are employed.

New and returning players who missed out on the initial gold rush caused by the surge of GDKPs are gatekept out of Naxxramas for a very long time. If you are a returning player you basically need to hope you had good gear when you stopped playing so that you can farm lower raid tier GDKPs as a carry for months on end before you accumulate enough to be rostered into a Naxx. As a new player you effictively need to either join GDKPs as a fake buyer and leech some gold from pots (until you get enough to be a real buyer) and hope you don’t get called out and potentially blacklisted. Or you need to achieve high enough PVP gear to be considered a hybrid or carry.

This is because most Naxxramas GDKPs have become a country club of core raiders who have all accumulated a very high amount of gold and thus are the better prospective buyers and hybrids to bring. Once their characters get sufficiently geared they can funnel their mains gold to their alts and continue the cycle of bringing a bunch of gold to nax, gearing their new characters, etc.

You cannot compete with these players for a roster slot as a new or returning player . Gold does not trickle down to the new, lower raid tier players because the super rich are all dispraportionately in naxrammas runs which, by and large, gatekeep said new players out. Basically the economy has become one where the rich get richer and get gear, and the poor stay poor and confined to tiers 1 and 2.

You could try starting your own raid to counter this, however for the average and even above average player, this is just not feasible and a bunch of work to expect just so that players can have a shot at experiencing the late game content.

You can try joining a guild to counter this, however good luck finding one, especially if you play as a hunter or warlock. The GDKP meta has siphoned players away from this style of playing. I’ve been spamming for a naxxramas guild for days as an almost fully bis hunter and have had no luck.

You can try pugging, but again MS>OS / SR pugs are few and far between, and the ones that exists have their adverts drowned out in the trade and looking for group chat channels by GDKP adverts (which are inherently lengthy due to the breakdown of cut % bonuses that almost always accompanies them)

^^ So if all of these methods suck, then that’s problematic because it means the path of least resistance for a new or returning player with the goal of getting late game gear is to buy enough gold to be considered a good prospective buyer.

This is a major problem, of which I see no “clear” solution other than banning GDKPS, which is not really something I want to advocate for. I just want players to be have a plethora of choices as to how they want to get late game gear for their character. Right now one choice dominates all of the others, which means players are basically subject to the cons of that one choice. Cons which are made irrelevent if you’re rich enough, and primarily negatively impact new and returning players, which is obivously very bad for the games longevity.

So while I don’t want GDKPs to be banned, a less drastic idea I’d like to spitball is account wide limits on gold, but I’m not even sure if that’s something that could be implented into the game currently. I feel like at one point this was a thing in Classic but I might be imagining things, and don’t know if it could now be implemented retreoactively even if it was. If account wide limits on gold could be done, then it would cap how far ahead the richest players can be from the poor and make the late game content more accessible, but as I’ve said I don’t know if this is possible. I’m not sure if character limits on gold are possible either, but it would have to where only level 60s could accquire thousands or else it would just be nullified since people can make a bunch of alts.

Anyways, assuming gold caps are off the table, I am stumped on this and would like to start this discussion to get other peoples thoughts and ideas. I am sure there is some obvious solution that I am missing, but it is currently escaping me.

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i concur sweats ruin all the fun. tbc fresh when?

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I have a very unpopular opinion. Korea has a huge hacking problem and one way to combat this is to tie everyone’s account to a real-life ID and phone number. Implement that fully and ban botters/gold sellers/gold buyers. Filter out the player base of scum and/or place them on their own Server/layer to screw over their own gameplay rather than everyone elses. :wink:

Ive also heard mention of some games applying an invisible trust value to players up to a limit, players will get slightly better incremental luck values/tiny loot crates/etc, when theyre “nice” to each other, or some sort of metric of that, and then they get basic values if theyre toxic, or worse values. With no way to find out what ur value is.

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Why do you want to join this club? Are you close to pre-Naxx BiS and this would be the next progression step for you? If so, why can’t you run Naxx with the same group you did MC/BWL/AQ40 with?

Didn’t read all of that but I agree with this post

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The sky isnt falling, its still up there.

Day 0 - TBC fresh happens
Day 1 - Sweats ruin it

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I disagree with your premise here. The ZG grind meta for AV weekend is kind of off putting conceptually, but it’s only 4 days out of the month where both sides try to boost as much honour as possible. Otherwise, it’s fine. I know that’s not your point here, I just wanted to mention.

For the rest… it’s not realy players optimizing the fun out of the game which drives us to gravitate towards AV, it’s just the way the BG works compared to the others. In WSG/AB I go against organized premades all the time and just get stomped. Some of those players are fully kitted out and running max consumes, but not always. However, the level of organization they bring is what tips the balance and it’s just not fun.

AV is approachable no matter what gear level you’re in. You do still face premades sometimes but it’s far more rare. It’s not even about the honour for me, it’s just about the fact that I can queue it solo and have a good time. I can guard towers/GYs for my team, I can go on back cap, I can pull LTS to the zerg squad, I can rush FWK and try to pre-cap towers. I have a lot of options. I don’t have these in WSG/AB, so it’s really just a matter of fun and engagement.

You are right to point out that AV is more honour; however, I kind of wonder how that compares when organized groups run WSG/AB. Is it comparable? I’ve heard mixed reports but I avoid WSG/AB because of my previously mentioned reasons.

I’m not saying all this to tell you that you’re wrong. A lot of the areas you mention are places where players definitely make the game a lot less fun for themselves. However, a lot of these are the result of the game itself. It needs changes… not massive ones, but a few tweaks so it can adapt to the modern age. This community is deathly afraid of changes though, and in all fairness for good reason, so Era stagnates and rots a bit. It is what it is.

Quick note here… the server I’m on has managed to create an awesome community that is completely isolated from a lot of this. We still feel its impact because a lot of bots/farmers abuse our server to transfer goods to the main clusters, but it’s still manageable. Come check us out if you’re interested in tackling content in a chill way, not loot hungry, and just want to have a good time.

Search for posts by Jarl-Grobbulus for details!

I am naxx bis save for my ranged weapon and one ring

Option 1:

  1. Ban GDKP.
  2. Implement official DKP loot option.
  3. Have good game.

Option 2:

  1. Have thousands of hackers botting gold and paying subs.
  2. Ban them every 3 months so they re-buy the game and pay sub again.
  3. Have bad game, but maybe more money.
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Similar lack of effort can be also applied to WSG and AB; not saying you’re wrong here about how some people play AV, just pointing out that its a player base issue; one I will soon be fixing when I rank yet another character and summon my pet tortoise.

You can consider it this way, the existing set of rankers are lazy and weak but I will soon correct them.

LONG LIVE TURTLE!

As for GDKP, this is both a problem and not a problem depending your your perspective. If you want gear to be harder to get, and more exclusive to only the best spec’s for raid then sure its a big problem from that perspective, but if you don’t care about absolutely N’th degree raid clear times then GDKP is kinda amazing because it allows dedicated dinguses to actually Raid as Retribution, Balance, Shadow, Enhance, or Elemental and gear up that way.

The only issue I have with GDKP is the lack of bans going out to players who buy gold; outside of the gold buying I feel as if its an excellent loot system.

GDKPs runs constantly looking for new people to rotate in, but they want people that know how to raid naxx well, and that is very hard to find.

It is less about how much gold a buyer has versus whether they can prove they won’t wipe the raid and waste 1.5 hours for everyone.
__
New players to naxx should be making raids with each other to learn, not hoping that players with hundreds of naxx runs will carry them.

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Big problem with players who think they should just skip all the content (especially if they have never done it) because they feel they should only have the BiS possible loot… Loot gobblins are the worst, and really need to just go to retail.

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I would say that everything one wants is basically possible in Era at the moment:

  • casual leveling
  • boosts
  • SR raids
  • Guilds raids (lc)
  • GDKPs
  • ranking

I think the best way to optimize the fun out of the game is to compare oneself to others.

Sure the guy who has been raiding on Era even since it launched, can bring their freshly boosted 60 in there and get half bis with under 4 days /played. But he also has 100+ days on the server to get to that point.

New players can get bis in like 1/2 to 1 year - which is a decent timeline, if one expects it to be faster they are probably playing the wrong game.

Yup, its Vanilla you make your own fun here. If you cant come up with fun things to do, that’s a personal issue.

i think the best way to play vanilla is by unsubbing

Then what are you doing here?

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I have full 9/9 tier 3 along with a Saphiron trinket and weapon, as well as logs showing 280 naxx boss kills, all purple or yellow parses. And I make this known through posting images of my gear in GDKP discord’s gear check channels.

So while there is truth to what you say, for my character the skill variable is controlled for and the only conclusion I’m led to is that I’m not financially viable to bring. Not saying experience is categorically not a factor, though.

It’s a multiplayer game. Comparing yourself to others is the entire point.

Are you a full bis hunter?
Can you pull?

Naxx runs generally only want 1 hunter that can pull. Any additional hunters are basically only buyers and even then probably not worth the risk since all hunter stuff isn’t really valuable and lots of hunters are liabilities.

So it is somewhat financial (the only expensive hunter-specific item is the xbow and warriors want it as well), but raids mostly don’t bring multiple hunters because their dps is really bad, they are likely to cause wipes, and even things like hunter mark will push off ignite and grief mages.

This isn’t just GDKPs though - any group that wants to clear naxx quickly will probably only bring 1 hunter max, regardless of system. And groups who bring lots of hunters are unlikely to keep decent dps or healers, because the runs will be slow since dps will be lacking.

Having a good time and making friends is the point. If one isn’t having fun they shouldn’t play the game.

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If gear, gold and damage didn’t exist nobody would be playing WoW. When you acquire it it makes you a more valuable player. This offers a huge amount of extrinsic motivation, and is why many people quit or stop raiding once they get fully bis.

Reductionists takes like “people should play to have fun” really don’t do anything except undermine discourse about games by failing to recognize just how multifactoral one’s enjoyment of a game is, and how complex game design is by nature. And saying that comparing yourself to others is wrong in an MMO is silly, and even if it wasn’t then still nobody is going to be able to stop doing it, people are naturally competitive. Almost every accomplishment in an MMO is veiwed within the context of how many others have achieved it. People are VERY social and by extension, VERY competitive in nature.

You should watch “extrinsic motivation” by youtuber Matthewmatosis