Thanks for facilitating a meaningful discussion. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to others just trying to dunk on people and actually fostering the toxicity they say they oppose.
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Although I will agree there is more that incentivizes socialization, I do not agree how you tend to approach this topic.
Does more go into engaging socially with the current system? Yes.
Does it make social Engagement Mandatory? Possible for the initial “Balance Druid lfg Nexus”
How this topic has been approached:
Pro-RDFer - “What’s the social issue with RDF?”
Anti-RDFer - “The tool keeps you from socializing. No one engages because no one has too.”
Pro-RDFer - “We aren’t engaging socially now.”
Anti-RDFer - “That’s on you.”
So it’s the tools fault unless no tool then it’s your fault? Could someone spark engagement with the tool?
I just think the issue with RDF is with flow of content. I don’t believe with the current culture of gaming as a whole that social behavior is greatly altered by RDF. I think we are just toxic regardless.
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Humans are toxic and LFG can easily be toxic, and has been.
RDF is toxic because it incentivizes rushing game play, that’s why mentors in FFXIV for the duty roulette aren’t praised either.
A new player? Don’t explain anything to them, just keep aoe pulling everything, don’t talk, just get your xp and ignore everyone. But don’t worry you said GG at the end. That is what sections of FF and Retail RDF is like.
Shanxi, I can respect your pov but it’s a game. You make the choice for it to be social. Some people are social, some people are not. The game is what you make it to be, if all the tools are available. IF they’re not available, then some people can’t play the game.
For example, my oldest son is a natural introvert. He was a baby when WoW came out, now a college student. He is a mythic raider and has a mythic guild, (he was invited to a top three guild but had to leave due to school requirements). It takes every ounce of his energy to communicate. It’s the way he is, it’s the way he was born. I am not saying he needs these tools but they were nice to have until he was comfortable to the point he is now. Not everyone is social. I have a lot of experience building teams, using group dynamics. Everyone has their place but one opinion isn’t the only one that matters.
In all my years, I have NEVER seen a ninja in RDF, LFR. I have been a victim of it in chat LFG, I actually remember a time in vanilla Wrath a trinket I had been farming hard for every week was ninja looted. Deathbringer’s will. It finally dropped and I won the roll. The raid leader ninja’d it.
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I will say, in terms of flow of content, that it only affects normal dungeons/lvling, right? Are you saying RDF makes lvling too fast? There’s still the 5 dungeons per hour and 1 heroic per day limit. Should it be like 3 dungeons per hour? Maybe I’m misunderstanding.
I believe both could be true in RDF and LFG but I also haven’t played FF.
You may have more experience with RDF tools since you have utilized them on other games.
I can’t really refute your argument due to lack of experience with this so you could be right. I can only speak to my experience.
This is exactly how a lot of people are lvling now. AoE pulls and groups that have less than 5 people. Maybe dungeons are too easy which blizzard can fix.
Strange, you never asked my opinion and yet you speak on my behalf… I’d like RDF put in. And I never even played retail. Oh and I have a guild as well.
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And in terms of new players, maybe RDF can only be for TBC and Wrath content. But I really don’t think that’s an issue
It wasn’t “RDF” or the new tools that killed WoW, just the way players “Socialized” changed.
Evidence was already shown twice in WoW-CLASSIC and TBC-CLASSIC these kind of old games can’t keep their playerbase, they start “Strong” but after 1 month they lose 90% of their playerbase.
With RDF or without RDF the same thing will happen a third time, people only come to min/max everything, they are not interested in the social aspect of the title, all communication is handled via “discord”.
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Yes, I know it’s a game. ANYONE can choose to not say a word and I can’t change that.
But I would say as a rule, RDF DISENCOURAGES socialization. Current LFG does ENCOURAGE socialization. Why? Because in RDF, if you don’t like a DPS, you can kick them for any reason as long as your party members agree and get a different player in zero seconds flat.
With LFG, you actually need to be social and likable to get a dungeon, otherwise you’ll be kicked.
As a kid, did you prefer it if you sat wherever you wanted or if the school forced to pair you up?
As for the rest of your post, all i can say is ninjaing is terrible and I want instant permas for loot ninjas, given ample proof.
One key thing you are missing is how gear became less important in Retail, especially by the time of LFR. Hit, crit, special procs all removed as a system or simplified to an easy stat. It’s a fact you’ll get more ninjas if the loot is extremely scarce and desirable.
Retail with all its catchup loot and simplified stats (it’s literally Stat A, Stat B, stamina for 95% items), the expansions with LFR , RDF had FAR LESS desirable and scarce loot.
I read posts and stories of hundreds saying they ninja’d a Vault of Archivon every day in 3.3.5.
I believe this 100%. MMOs, especially re-releases like WotLK, don’t have the same sense of wonderment, exploration, and appreciation of its lore and design. People are focused on end-content and min-maxing clear times and parses. It’s all about being the best now. Not saying that’s good or bad. That’s just the player culture now.
My current belief is that the RDF tool makes time-filter of reputation capping, pre-raid BiS and raid prerequisite too fast to obtain.
Since most content (Outside of Heroic +) in classic as been done before, it general goes by very quickly. In my experience, for the start of an expansion you need a time-sink/filter to pace content to avoid raid logging.
Once me and my buddies have what we need we just log and wait for raid day. Some don’t even show because that time away numbs the desire to log back on.
I can only speak for my own experience. I just fear population droughts due to clearing to quickly. This is only in respect to early phases in regards to RDF.
I find it hard to articulate my point and that’s on me! So Sorry.
The Time-filter for early phases being group-assembly, dungeon travel time and just general inconvenience with dealing replacing people whom drop. It is frustrating but it does create memories and slows that initial progress enough to make it not “too easy” in the beginning.
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Honestly, I really like the democratic process of RDF. That’s the accountability you wanted for people ninja’ing or being toxic. RDF is also great because it eliminates the Hard Res concept and the hierarchical power structure that comes with being the leader. Being the party leader means you are the dungeon guide for your group rather than the authoritative and unilateral decision-maker.
This isn’t a good analogy IMO. You’re not being forced to use RDF. You can still LFG.
Again, RDF doesn’t take away from being social. You can be social using RDF or LFG. The people do not change. It’s an additional option, nothing is being taken away, it’s being added 
.
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The only RDF I don’t want is you, thanks. I do want the Dungeon finder for classic, though.
If they’re gonna talk about ‘the classic experience’ then they should consider not doing free transfers and reverting all of them, not doing boosts and reverting any boosts (This includes people that bought dungeon boosts that were not around in Vanilla.) etc.
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I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure RDF really makes that worse. I also feel people should be allowed to play on their own time at their own pace that they choose without altering it excessively with artificial time wasters/fillers. Also, normal dungeons are primarily ran for lvling and temporary gear upgrades. People will always be running those even for alts. They way to keep people returning to dungeons, specifically heroic dungeons, is by giving them an ongoing reason to, such as through badges, frozen orbs, dailies, and RDF gold/loot bonuses.
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Yes, it does sound great! But consider this: some (not ALL) people in Retail will literally kick you in RDF for saying “Brb for a sec”.
Why? because they don’t care about you. They can replace you if you are a DPS almost INSTANTLY .
Don’t get me wrong… LFG they don’t care about you either, but they KNOW it will take longer to replace you than it’s worth waiting for… thus a more fair and respectful environment is created for all.
It’s simple psychology
I mean. It’s sort of rude to queue for a dungeon and then go afk. Kind of like people afking in BGs lol. But I suppose life happens and you have to take care of something. Maybe explain more to them besides simply saying brb 1 sec. And obviously if you’re gone for a decent while, like 5 mins, then that merits a kick. At the end of the day, just queue again. If the majority of your group votes to kick you, then that’s just how it goes. No offense but, not liking RFD because it’s harder to afk without getting kicked seems like a lackluster argument.
I will agree that normal dungeons are utilized for leveling purposes.
Currently in the beginning of this phase, until naxx activation. I would consider normal 80 dungeons to be currently content temporarily. I don’t like the idea of those being RDF accessible.
You are also right about badges, materials, heroics and dailies sustaining engagement. I just fear that it is not enough sometimes.
I loved wrath, I want it to last. I could absolutely be wrong about RDF, can you blame me for fearing possible negative affects?
I am not a dev nor do I claim to know what is best for the game. I just have anxiety about the expansion I enjoyed most ended up like the rest.
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