shrug
Whatever you want.
I offered you my arguments in good faith. Take them how you will.
it is my opinion Sylvanas is way worse than Arthas.
She had free will.
He didn’t.
She did more damage and suffering than he ever did before touching the sword.
Just because she is a victim doesn’t give her a pass to do what she wants.
Especially considering the people she is doing these things to had absolutely ZERO to do with her plights.
Arthas is in the maw. Sylvanas belongs in the maw. letting arthas keep her there isn’t going to give him any redemption, but it’d give her apt punishment worse than anything anyone else can give her.
Sylvanas is basically the same as Arthas is at the height of his worst crimes, and they both deserve eternal punishment in the deepest levels of Torghast. The most poetic ending is for the two of them to be put in opposing cells so they can stare at each other for the rest of eternity.
The difference between Sylvanas and Arthas is that he was a slave when doing those things. Sylvanas wasn’t… not that we know anyway.
Maybe Blizzard will say ever since Wrath she was mind controlled by the Jailor.
Well that will significantly reduce her burden of the blame.
At Blizzcon they say she’s above that and beyond that. They’re partners, she isn’t his servant.
On the other hand, Blizzard says a lot of things.
That sounds like a mighty convenient excuse.
Arthas has no one to blame for his fate other than himself. He chose to forsake his own soldiers by stranding them in Northrend, burning his own ships before they could return home. He chose to sacrifice Muradin to claim Frostmourne. He basically chose to become a Death Knight.
Say what you will about Sylvanas, at least she had to become undead first before she became a villain.
So she likely thinks. Reality might paint a different picture in the end.
You do know this was sometimes used as a last resort by commanders right?
Its called point of no return and it was done in real life too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_no_return
Ok but he did it to save his people.
He literally says that as he does it.
Yeah he has no one to blame but himself but until he touched that sword his intentions were pure.
He didn’t take frostmourne to kill his father and destroy his kingdom. The lich king made him do those things.
So now you are of the opinion that being undead makes you evil?
Not exactly something one should brag about in military leadership IMO, but what do I know? I’m just your average American civ.
I have to question if he liked to claim “I do it for my people” but on the subconscious level it became “I do it because my ego is bruised”. Even if it was “I do it for my people”, it’s a pretty poor handling of that when you literally sacrifice all your soldiers in order to get the win.
I don’t know. Maybe? I guess it’s a case by case basis. Calia didn’t become evil when she became undead. Neither did Derek Proudmoore.
Other cases like Amelia Stone aren’t villains in life but when they become undead they start having “My former people really suck” thoughts.
/shrug
This is all beside the point. The truth is that Arthas and Sylvanas are still cut from the same jib, so they deserve similar fates, whatever those might be.
So, I’m not in agreement with Arthas being the jailor/tormentor of Sylvanas (I personally prefer the idea of him being a broken and depressed mess that recognizes how his actions had horrible repercussions given that he essentially watched his body destroy everything he cared for from Frostmourne and wants nothing to do with Sylvanas or the heroes/covenants while he’s stewing in the Maw), but fun fact, he almost didn’t grab Frostmourne and instead tried to heal Muradin to get the hell out of there, because when he saw that the blade was cursed he was thinking of going for a self-sacrifice (still pretty paladin-ish) and not “sacrifice a friend over this sword”. He was this close to just noping out of there after Muradin got stabbed by the ice.
Then Ner’zhul started whispering magical whispers in his ear like a creepy stalking lover and he grabbed the sword anyways, because Ner’zhul’s been practically planning for that moment since the moment Arthas was born and knew exactly which buttons to press.
Though if there had been a massive neon sign saying “If you do this, you’ll lose your soul, become a Death Knight of the Scourge and the Champion of the Lich King, and you’ll wreck havoc across Lordaeron as you destroy it, murder all of its inhabitants and raise them into the undead” he probably would’ve turned away since it was directly opposed to the reason he was interested in the sword in the first place. For all he and Muradin knew (and all Muradin knew was the inscription written in Kalimag on it that he translated), it was just some cursed runeblade that could’ve been anything from a Drakkari blood curse to an insane/wacky curse, which he was ok with bearing if it meant he could save his people. He signed the contract, and then Ner’zhul pointed out the fine print that you need a microscope to even know it’s there.
What? Dude. Arthas was wholly consumed and subsumed by vengeance by that point. He only cared about killing Malganis. Thus why he was totally okay with screwing his own men over.
“Muradin!”
The impact of the ice shard had knocked the dwarf back several feet. Now he lay sprawled on the cold stone floor, a spear of ice impaling his midsection, the blood sluggishly flowing around it. His eyes were closed and he was limp. Arthas scrambled to his feet and hastened over to his old friend and trainer, tugging off his gauntlet. He slipped an arm around the limp form, placing his hand on the wound, staring at it, willing the Light to come and limn his hands with healing energy. Guilt racked him.
So this was the dreadful price. Not his own life, but that of a friend. Someone who had cared for him, taught him, supported him. He bowed his head, tears stinging his eyes, and prayed.
It’s my folly. My price. Please-
And then, like a familiar caress from a loved friend, he felt it. The Light raced through him, comforting and warm, and he bit back a sob as he saw the flow again begin to embrace his hand. He had fallen so far, but it wasn’t too late. The Light had not abandoned him. All he needed to do was drink in it, open his heart to it. Muradin would not die. He could heal him, and together they-
Something stirred at the back of his neck. No, no, not the back of his neck… the back of his mind. He looked up quickly-
And stared in wonder.
It had flung itself free to imbed itself in front of him, its blue-white runes enveloping it in a cold and glorious light. His own Light faded from his hands as he rose to his feet, almost hypnotized. Frostmourne was waiting for him, a lover needing the touch of the desired one to waken to full glory.
The whispers in the back of his mind continued. This was the path.
-Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, chapter fifteen, pages 184-185.
He was on the verge of just getting the hell out of there with Muradin before Ner’zhul started whispering in his mind to get him to grab Frostmourne.
Huh. That’s not what they portrayed in the vidya games.
Since when were you under the impression that video games were canon?
Arthas had the choice to ignore the whispers of Ner’zhul and just leave. He wasn’t being mind controlled, he was receiving suggestions from an outside source which he chose to listen to instead of Muradin’s common sense. If he didn’t maliciously take the sword and sacrifice Muradin then he was weak of will. It wasn’t exactly an Old God whispering to him either, it was a disembodied spirit of an orc sorcerer trapped in a block of ice.
nO sYlvAnUs sHoulD bE rEdEEmEd KiLlInG aRtHuS.
Definitely seemed like there was a magical angle to Ner’zhul’s suggestions to me, but I feel like we won’t see eye to eye on this and I don’t feel like getting into an extended discussion about it that lasts for hours and convinces no one of either argument, so I’ll just drop it.
Like I said, an orc sorcerer. There might have been some magic added into the influence, but one would think a paladin would be able to resist such a thing.
Also, he did overpower Ner’zhul and became the dominant persona for the Lich King. If he could have managed that he could have managed to tell Ner’zhul’s whispers “No” and walked away.
I don’t think it was as much of a magical suggestion and a botched saving throw as it was a choice made after the poking of a bruised ego.
At the risk of being the “aCtUaLlY” guy, the Legion totally invades all over the place, but it’s all fragmented behind the class hall campaigns. I had the same thought as you until I progressed the Order Hall stuff on four characters and finally I am getting a vague semblance of invasion.
I don’t entirely disagree with you though; they definitely could have shown the “Kingdoms Will Burn” angle waaaayyyy better. Instead they made cringy storylines like the Monk Order Hall where you are brewing some dope beer for the luls.
Regarding the convo at hand - let’s not read too much into Arthas’ alleged goodness about holding the Scourge back out of some inner desire to be good. The lore at the end of Wrath made no sense and did not hold with with what was presented in WC3/TFT, the book by Golden, or the first couple of patches of the very expansion itself.
For all the strengths of the lore team back then (vs now), they were just as clueless as where to take the story, and the “There must always be a LK” was massively frowned upon then, too.
This is just fail. Not you, Windsor, but the book.
Typical Blizzard though - thinks its audiences are so dumb and 1-D that they won’t be able to get into a character/setting if they can’t root for the character. So they blanche arthas I guess.
Crazy. It’s like they never read books like Gone With The Wind where the most compelling character is a total and delightful monster.
Wow, that would be a great message! The man who turned Sylvanas into the Banshee Queen by violating her in unimaginable ways gets redeemed by bringing her down. Awesome idea!