You put it a lot better than I did without searching my room for my three year-old notes on morality from my philosophy class.
I disagree, we know he lost his soul when he grabbed the blade (Tychondrius said so), ill give you that he began his slippery slope from stratholme, he was vengeance driven until he arrived northrend, there he went from doing dubious and ruthless choices to full blown selfish immoral acts like killing the mercs, he made those choices yes that is why he is in hell, but he was manipulated all along the way by ner’zhul and mal ganis so he wasnt a full blown sociopath from the get go, ive read (and please correct me if im wrong) sociopathy has a heavy component of learnt behavior unlike psycopathy.
In wow we know souls exist, and contain the knowledge and personality of the individual, that is why you can do gnarly stuff like putting the soul of someone in someone elses body or why banshee’s could posses living beings, in this case arthas’ body is mostly following frostmourne and nerzhul’s will, while his soul watches horrified inside frostmourne, after he absorbs nerzhul “he” (arthas’ body) has a will that is directed to something else.
If you read the book after he arrives to lordaeron again, he hears the whispers from nerzhul and frostmourne several times, telling him do this or to stab stuff and thats what he does, he even stabs ner zhul at the end listening to frostmourne.
Since we are all waxing philosophical about things here, in a sense Sylvanas never did, either:
- At first, Sylvanas wondered if she was insane in this new, abhorrent incarnation. But it soon became apparent that even the refuge of the mad was denied her. The voice in her mind was unintelligible at first, and in her wretched state she did not wish to hear. But soon she understood to whom it belonged.
For my glory, you will serve, Sylvanas. For the dead, you will toil. For obedience, you will hunger. Arthas is the first and most beloved of my death knights; he will command you forever, and you will find it joyous.
Never, she told the voice in her head. He directs my actions, but Arthas cannot break my will.
Hmmm…as she states, her will might be her own, but her actions are not. I think the point that is being made is that we should only be held responsible for actions that we chose.
Arthas chooses his actions every step of the way, up to and including murdering and replacing his boss. Sylvanas only starts to choose her actions once she has escaped his power, so it only makes sense to hold her morally culpable for what she does from that point forward.
This is a pretty basic legal principle IRL, as well. You can’t be considered responsible for things that you were forcibly compelled to do. For example, if I put my hand over yours and force you to fire a gun at someone, no prosecutor anywhere is going to charge you with a crime for that, and no judge or jury would convict.
Edit: Also, I think the sense in which Sylvanas is referring to her “will” is obviously distinct from the sense in which we were discussing having free will; i.e. the freedom to control your actions. It is pretty clear that in this quotation Sylvanas is referring to her refusal to let Arthas dictate who she is, even as he is making her body do terrible things.
The terrible irony is that she is wrong. As a result of what is done to her, she ultimately becomes almost exactly like Arthas. Which is, you know, a pretty awful theme, but that’s what Blizzard decided to go with.
Further edit: And yes, I know that being the victim of abuse sometimes leads to people becoming abusive themselves. But I have two problems with this theme in this particular case. One: Blizzard keeps revisiting it with female characters in particular. Two: this particular crime tracks so closely to real life r-word crimes that having Sylvanas repeat the pattern is both difficult to believe and thematically horrifying. Most r-word victims do not become r-word perpetrators themselves.
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Oh I definitely agree on this point. I find it an interesting distinction that it’s not exactly mind control, as the Lich King didn’t actually have control over her mind, just was more treating her like a marionette.
Also true. I do not hold Sylvanas responsible for whatever actions were actually the Lich King acting through her like a puppet.
I don’t think it would be any less horrifying if Sylvanas had been male.
As for your point about most victims not becoming like their abusers, that also applies to most of the undead raised by Arthas and/or Ner’zhul. Except for a few blatantly evil characters who follow after Sylvanas like Nathanos and Belmont, most of the undead are not looking to raise more undead for the sake of torturing/enslaving/breaking them. Or at least I’d like to think so, but I am actually struggling to think of examples.
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No, but my point is that Blizzard seems to really like repeating this theme with female characters.
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Widowmaker and Kerrigan do remain strangely popular despite this trope.
That implies he still had control, and chose to follow the whispers. Just because he was being influenced (and easier then before to influence without any of that pesky empathy left in the way) doesn’t mean he had no free will, it makes a stronger case that he still was in control.
Despite all that when he has his dialogue with the Lich King after killing his father, there is still something inside Arthas that says to Ner-zhul who’s still stuck in that block of ice, “I dammed everything I ever loved.”
There’s still something inside or directing the body Arthas that has self-awareness and still considers himself the being that was the Prince of Lordaeron.
The way the RPG book described Frostmourne is that when the sword is taken up it takes the soul from it’s wielder, but that soul can still direct the body so that the wielder may not even be aware of what has happened to him.
It’s also clear from the book “Arthas” that Arthas has a continuity of identity of choice throughout his entire existence despite being both soul-drained by Frostmourne and sharing psyches in the Helm of Command.
Sylvanas and the Forsaken’s free will comes with an asterisk. Having your soul ripped from your body, violated and or partially reattached by dark magic doesn’t exactly result in free will.
Imagine all of the abominations that the Forsaken make that go through a kind of lobotomized process. Do they have free will? Of course they do, but that free will is limited to how they are wired. Sylvanas and the Forsaken have free will, but its also limited to how they are wired.
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Sure, but that’s no different from any other corruption that isn’t mind control. Same limitation could be said for anyone altered by the Emerald Nightmare, for example. Unfortunately it seems the corruption of undeath can’t be undone, though.
you people can be so pretentious sometimes
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90% of this thread is proof why “dark lady bad” is a condition that damages the cerebral cortex of World of Warcraft players, causing them to push for disgusting implications and celebrate it because pixels hurt their real life feelings.
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Sylvanas and Arthas are also pixels.
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Absolutely. Very true. Pixels hurt anti-Sylvanas peoples feelings. What is their problem? But the idea of a pixel Arthas killing a pixel Sylvanas again really ticks me off and gets under my skin. It’s disgusting and horrifying to even imply such a thing.
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Frankly Sylvanas’ fate - be it good or bad - should be an extension of what she’s done. Be it redemption, damnation or penance, stapling Arthas back onto her arc in-person at this point would serve only to make it no longer about Sylvanas as a character. Arthas paid for his crimes, and whatever Sylvanas’ fate may be, it shouldn’t be turned into a retread of him. To do so would just dilute the relevance of everything else that’s happened to her and been done by her since WotLK by implying it wasn’t really her story, but rather just an extended buildup toward a delayed reexamination of Arthas.
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I think the “Sylvanas takes over the Jailer’s job but finds out it actually really sucks” suggestion made earlier is the only one that’s vaguely satisfying and thematic with her crimes.
It wouldn’t please anyone, but it wouldn’t have nearly as much backlash as anything else.
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You two need to do stand-up.
That’s the nicest thing you’ve said. Thank you!
please no more kill steals.
Arthas can stay in the background, a image or minor interaction with other characters? fine!
arthas having another major role and kill stealing a kill that tyrande deserves more than anyone? NO.
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