I’ll just skip over how uninformed you are on the success rate of insanity pleas (very low) to instead point out that those people are still considered the perpetrators of their crimes. They don’t catch a free pass (other than outlier cases) for their crimes.
Also, those people aren’t the cause of their own mental illnesses. Arthas’s downward spiral was. He also only went insane after slaughtering all of Stratholm. Your argument is moot here.
You can disagree, but you are wrong. Canonically, Arthas was never mind controlled. Canonically he was not forced to act against his will. Canonically, his crimes were his own.
Nobody’s claiming she’s “more innocent”, only that Arthas’s atrocities stack up much higher than Sylvanas’s. He’s “more guilty” because he did more.
Factually. Inarguably. Indisputably. He did far more horrors than even she did. This doesn’t absolve the banshee queen. It just means she didn’t get on his level.
Factually, Arthas wasn’t mind controlled. So no, I was correct to tell you to play WCIII.
Right, like how in every story, the hero just defeats the villain on the first page, or how in WoW, your very first character is instantly at the level cap, bedecked with epics on day one.
… Ok, well, maybe WoW’s a bad example there.
Except he did.
Okay? That means what exactly in the context of Arthas’s crime list being longer the Sylvanas’s? Or how does that back up Arthas being mind controlled? Or anything at all relevant?
I mean, yeah she changed. Nobody said she hasn’t changed.
I dont know… arthas case is similar to the orcs, but totally different from sylvanas, there are paralels but the main thing is sylvanas still has her soul on her body, twisted and dark but its still there (hence why she can still suffer when betrayed by veressa), arthas soul was sucked up on frostmourne only a little sliver remained in the shape of matthias lener which by the way is paying in superhell as per edge of night.
So the question would be, who is more evil? someone that massacres high on drugs? or someone that does it for kicks/power?
Except your own lore excerpts have shown that not to be the case prior to Frostmourne. His actions caused Stratholm. His actions stranded his men in Northrend. Him. He did it. He lost his marbles because of his own actions, but his actions were still his own.
I disagreed with your premise that he was mentally controlled.
I disagreed with your bold crazy person statement that Sylvanas’s crimes were greater than Arthas’s.
I disagreed with your idea that the abuser (Arthas) should get to spend eternity in the company of his victim (Sylvanas), though I know it “satisfies you” to think about it. I disagree that her punishment should involve him at all.
I disagree with your attempts to absolve Arthas of his own guilt, which the games themselves also disagree with you on. Arthas’s actions were Arthas’s own. He was not the victim. He was not controlled.
I’ve made my disagreements well known to you. I’m restating them again. Put your glasses on, read them, then go play WCIII and Wrath.
Why would the prince who went through so much trouble (stratholm and the entire northrend campaign) to suddenly turn around. Lead the very same threat he was fighting against to destroy everyone and everything he knew.
That simply doesnt make sense.
Unless Arthas wanted to destroy lordaeron from the very beginning.
Because the real reason Arthas wanted to “save” Lordaeron and destroy the Scourge wasn’t because he cared, it was because he wanted everyone to see him as a great and powerful champion. He did it for his own glorification.
Once he obtained Frostmourne, he obtained more power than he ever dreamed of, and he realized that by leading the Scourge, he could be more than just a champion of Lordaeron, he could rule the entire world.
From all ive read till now i concur, his problem pre-frostmourne was revenge against mal ganis for all he did to his people, post-frostmourne he did the lich king’s will till he went northrend again to don the helm of domination then he became the lich king we all love today.
Not to mention that mental institutions for dangerous offenders are even more tightly locked down than regular prisons. It’s not like they are being sent to a garden party.
As for Arthas being in control, Blizzard has directly stated that Arthas was in control once he became Lich King. Not Ner’zhul, not some other force. Arthas himself.
Also, numerous examples, including some quoted in this thread, show that Arthas didn’t do “the loch’s king’s will” because he was compelled. He did it because he wanted to.
When Sylvanas was made to attacked her own people, she was forced in the way that almost all the Scourge were forced. She literally had no control over her actions. Arthas was different. He was rational and able to make decisions. For example, the decision to violate Sylvanas like that was all him. Ner’zhul had nothing to do with it.
Ill go with this; we have both characters making references to the lich king’s will but only sylvanas claiming her will is her own.
Its quite obvious nobody is giving a pass to arthas, he was in an impossible situation and had to be ruthless with his choices, he damned himself with his choices, this is the reason why the little part of his soul that remained on frostmourne is rotting in the maw, he was consumed with vengeance and fell to the deep end.
However what remained is the monster, a souless shell whose will was just the whispers of a transfigured orc soul, then finally that vessel was filled with the power of the lich king after he ascended to the throne.
Real life aside, in an universe that deals with souls, that we know souls exists and contain the memories and personalities of each person, you are not yourself anymore if your body doesnt have a soul, like Arthas, or if it has the soul of someone else (see xal’athath), you are welcome to disagree however i see no reason why you would and kindly ask for a proper counterargument.
Sylvana’s case is interesting because her soul is still within her body, both arthas and sylvanas made references about the will of the lich king whispering to them, arthas had to watch his body controlled by the lich king kill everything he held dear from within frostmourne, sylvanas did the same from her body and because she had a soul she could feel lots of hatred, Arthas didnt feel squat when he killed everything he loved and fought for so there is a clear difference between a person with a twisted soul and a souless shell, at least in warcraft.
As if there was a thread that bound her to him, she never was more than a few feet away from the death knight.
And she was beginning to hear the whispers.
At first, Sylvanas wondered if she was insane in this new, abhorrent incarnation. But it soon became apparent that even the refuge of the mad was denied her. The voice in her mind was unintelligible at first, and in her wretched state she did not wish to hear. But soon she understood to whom it belonged.
Arthas kept giving her sidelong glances as he continued his inexorable march to Silvermoon and beyond, watching her closely. At one point, as this army of which she was a captive part surged forward, destroying the land as it passed, she heard it very clearly.
For my glory, you will serve, Sylvanas. For the dead, you will toil. For obedience, you will hunger. Arthas is the first and most beloved of my death knights; he will command you forever, and you will find it joyous.
Page 104 rise of the lich king.
So i agree both arthas and sylvanas cases are different, but for a completely different reason, one does have a soul in her body and the other doesnt, both at some point were under the control of the lich king however she regained her will while he got possesed and became the lich king.
One, you’re ignoring the fact that Blizzard has stated, directly and without equivocation, that the process of undeath fundamentally damages souls. It alters them, for example, so that it becomes almost impossible for them to feel positive emotions, and it amplifies negative ones. That is canon. On top of that, Blizzard has repeatedly referenced the specific damage that was done to Sylvanas’ soul as a result of what happened to her, and that it never recovered.
Secondly, you are referring to Arthas as “possessed.” But that is not the case. Arthas willingly served the Lich King, and then chose to turn on him and usurp his power. For example, in the passage that you cite, you can see that Sylvanas is being forced to the extent that her body is essentially an automaton. That is not true of Arthas, at all.
But Arthas wasn’t completely souless. Frostmourne did not take all of him. It isn’t until the epilogue of the book that Arthas kills the little boy who represents the last remanences of his former self.
Do you know that little bit of salsa that remains when you clean a plastic topperware? it has no effect to him but its enough to be an annoyance, for all practical effects he behaved like a souless individual, his soul ended all on frostmourne anyways.
Perhaps. I tend to think the boy was a man once and withered slowly until Arthas finally kills what was left of him at the end. There are other passages throughout the book hinting Arthas struggled with what was left of his humanity.
I made no claim for you to say is wrong. I do not believe Sylvanas’ personality is significantly different than she was in life. That belief stands regardless of when or if Blizzard said undeath affected her. Thank you for entitling me to my own opinion.
If Blizzard is even sticking to that claim, as the only example anyone has ever actually cited of saying Sylvanas’ soul was affected by undeath comes from Before the Storm, and short of Blizzard trying to work it so Mueh’zala jumped the gun on Sylvanas and the Jailer’s plan, it’s questionable how much stock we should put into that book.
Everything in between this ending part and the beginning of your post has no relevance to my point. Regardless of how willing or stupid Arthas was to give up his soul, my points was that people like to defend how supernatural alterations like undeath excuse Sylvanas some yet avoid that realization is the same for Arthas.
Hell, for that matter your last sentence applies to Sylvanas as well. She went from: “What are we if not slaves to this torment?” to fully embracing the darkness and brutalizing others the same way she was.
This happens to some undead, not all. As you said, you are not entitled to your own facts.