Classes are outperforming Rogues such as Paladins, Demon Hunters, Monks, etc all while still having the option to be a healer or tank, neither of which are available for Rogues.
Rogues offer zero group utility. No Bloodlust, no Battlerez, no PI - nothing. Just stuns and interrupts that other classes do better.
And speaking of stuns - is the Combo Point system outdated? You have to spend 5/6 combo points to sacrifice a 50k Eviscerate in order to land a Kidney stun that every other class just presses 1 button for. They sacrifice no burst for their stuns, but Rogues do.
Itâs also appearing that Rogues are the worst scaling class this expansion. Some classes in S2 will have over 1 million HP while shadow striking will continue to do sub 20k damage.
Even Pika stopped playing his Rogue.
So again, are you happy with the state of Rogues?
9 Likes
Hard to compare with other classes, considering stealth / vanish. I know that matters less in PvE but it sounds like youâre talking more PvP.
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Iâm talking about everything.
I also forgot to mention that Rogues are the only class with a capstone that penalizes them if âused incorrectlyâ, danse macabre.
3 Likes
I think you have an argument with combo system, though there are a lot of generators these days. But the rest, eh. Maybe Iâm just a jaded hunter main who is also used to DPS only and zero group utility (other than a good PvP toolkit)⌠But our stealth is worse. 
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Issue is abilities need to do far more on their own to actually be a threat. Currently we are just assist damage and based around heavy cds that are easily countered.
Def need to go back to wod design.
Take the damage out of dance, put it back into base abilities, fix fw to ignore armor again etc.
Get rid of SL gimmicks.
Please take a look at this thread as well.
It discusses a fair request to return to what made Subtlety, at its roots as a rogue.
- hard backstabs , not gloomblade
- sanguinary mf vein
- actual find weakness
- eviscerate doing its job
- rupture and evisc
- no gimmicks, all rogue tools
Copium of a Sub rogue (PVP)
Edit. Insight of a Subtlety rogue Since ptr is closing threads soon.
11 Likes
Not super happy, outlaw is bloated and hard to play, the constant nefs made it into a mid-low tier dps, and since day 1 of the expansion we have to get a 2 point talent that doesnât work.
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Stealth is easy to counter with the massive amount of AOE in the game plus Flair. People being bad isnât a good reason to under tune something.
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Iâd love either/both these changes to be truly 100% satisfied. These are both outlaw related though:
- FTH revert to 10.0 function
- Either make BF a toggle again instead of a cd or uncap it further.
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No, it over evolved itâs value.
When you had 5 combo points and it took a while to build them, finishers could be impactful. Now, one generator is 5 combo points and the damage has been tuned accordingly.
The heart of that issue lies with the fact that Energy as a resource is outdated, not Combo Points. Now that cooldown-based classes use hasted rotational cooldowns, they have evolved beyond the benefits originally touted by the Energy system (essentially charges before attacks had charges, where tick rate functions as the cooldown).
I think the obvious solution is remove energy outright and focus more on GCD as the resource, but then you enter into the contentious relationship of a âgen-spendâ system; that is, generators are typically way undervalued to the spenders, which makes damage outside of spend feel lethargic on one hand or spenders not be meaningfully impactful enough for the time it takes to build them on the other.
Iâm not sure completely on how to resolve that issue but it is something I unfortunately have put way too much thought into.
4 Likes
Thereâs a big disagreement here.
Using stealth to wait out cooldowns and setups has been a longstanding issue. Stealth should be even easier to counter (or rather harder to use effectively in PvP) by being a Sneak and not a pure Invisibility.
Would you be in favor of giving every class permanent stealth then?
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Lol are noobs really complaining about stealth in 2023 come on thats a L2P issue, weâve got bigger things to worry about
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Donât shift the goal post from the fact that despite having flare youâre still not good enough to deal with a 20 year old mechanic. Thats a you issue not stealth.
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I think youâre confused. Iâm not complaining about it nor do I have any issues with stealth.
But when looking at class balance, you have to weigh the entire kit. Surely thatâs something you can understand. A class that can dictate the fight is going to have some drawbacks.
Iâm not even saying rogue is perfect (though itâs generally always good in PvP) and doesnât need some love⌠Iâm just saying you canât ignore the implementation of a permanent stealth mechanic AND a free get out of combat when discussing your desired changes.
If you think stealth is a non factor when engaging in a debate about class design, I canât take you seriously. You are either being purposefully obtuse or youâre just ignorant and shouldnât get involved in class design discussions.
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everything breaks stealth now just about.
- lock dots and untargeted abilities break stealth
- paladin judgements break stealth
- UH dk untargeted aoe from fart bags break stealth
- mass roots if in range will grab you
- hunter pets follow you regardless of vanish / stealth
- Dh eyes self explanatory
- Paladin Divine Toll will find you in stealth and hit you regardless of being untargetable
Druids also stealth and do full damage and are rogue clones that have burst and sustained, stun just as frequently. There are no draw backs for them along with a 70% wall combining Survivial Instincts and Barkskin + Bear or super bear and ironfur etc.
Stealth in 2023 is a non issue, just people that couldnât simply keep a bleed / dot / use mobility to chase a rogue running around.
5 Likes
Or just make abilities actually slap instead of relying on casino pistol wyatt earp. Killing spree should do what it says, not be a5 year old sugared up trying to get you to look at them do a cartwheel.
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So you would give, letâs say, warriors stealth and not remove/reduce something else? And that wouldnât change anything because itâs a non issue that should not be taken into consideration?
And Iâm not trying to argue stealth is op⌠Just that rogue design will always take that into consideration.
I can agree that while looking at the whole ecosystem that there are too many root-breakers these days. Thereâs been a lot of this kind of âcreepâ in different combat systems causing issues (mobility being the biggest offender).
Id say put stealth as a 30sec duration so people can get off that train already. Including druids , hunters, and us. Other games do it ffxiv / gw2 / neverwinter and it works just fine.
I donât care what has to be traded to have impactful damage.
No one blinks an eye when ferals do everything we do , bleed an entire team, have the same control, incarn vanish on a 1 min cd by cdr , and burst at will though.
Abilities need to just slap, not telegraphed at a momentâs notice that anyone with a functioning brain will cc you on as your only moment to do any meaningful damage.
Not saying have strong af damage to put people in a coffin like a warrior / paladin but something to close the gap.
WoD design was that balance hands down and its been silly ever since.
Their stealth based control and slipperiness is non-existent compared to what rogue has. Thatâs why lolferal never pings the sneakyboi radarâa rogue on the other hand has a lot more tools to exploit stealth (which is also why sneaks donât need to be as strongâthey donât need to be penalty-free invisibilities).
I donât hate Rogues; to see how Stealth impacts the balance conversation is yet another tax. Regardless, fights break down into the Combat Phase where the value of Stealth rapidly deteriorates. I donât want the power of Stealth peeling away from the Combat Phase and to exist as the only excuse to leave Shadow Dance as a valid mechanic. I also believe that addressing Stealth, notoriously Stealth Detection, provides a justification to increase the value of effective openers (since they are harder to achieve cleanly). More risk, more reward.