Hi, its me. The tank pulling all to boss.
1 Like
I’m content with the energy system, personally. I don’t mind punishing people for abusing generators and not rotating through their kit.
However, spenders need to not cost energy, or cost a fraction of what they do right now. They literally designed the class at this point to spam spenders, forcing energy deficits. We also have a ton of energy regen talents, but almost zero that actually focus on the actual management side of things.
You know what Feral has?
Free energy gain and energy recovery on a 30 second CD, flat energy regen talents, clearcasting procs for their generators, energy refunds on spenders, and a flat energy use reduction CD every 3 minutes.
I feel absolutely frustrated any time I’m shot in the foot with a bad roll and no adrenaline rush, which happens a lot now that Acro is gone. Their energy nerfs and the bugs have led to downtime even in a good rotation because Crackshot breaking and running out of tea charges during bad roll windows just means a compounding down time. Plus, Crackshot alone will send you into zero energy with enough consecutive procs.
It doesn’t happen a ton, but it’s absolutely miserable when the lottery fires the wrong direction. It’s not as bad as Sin is, but it definitely isn’t something to shrug off.
6 Likes
Sins energy pooling pretty much stems from the fact that Sanguine Blades exists so your goal is to maintain above 50% energy without dropping your Envenom buff. The current iteration of the spec is pretty much built around the idea that you essentially afk outside of your Kingsbane windows which is why I refuse to play it in the first place. To give you a direct answer to your question though Feral kind of pools energy but not to the extent that Assassination does because Ferocious Bite can consume an extra 25 energy for more damage so you have an incentive to not spam.
For Outlaw you absolutely do feel it. The biggest problem with Outlaw is that our energy regen has been nerfed into the ground and we were quite literally reworked around a tier set that no longer exists. If you ever drop Adrenaline Rush for whatever reason the entire spec simply ceases to even work at a basic level and you’re perma energy starved afking until you get Rush back which is why losing Acrobatic Strikes is such a massive issue when losing a single GCD can be the difference between you continuing to do damage or dropping to tank dps for the next 45s.
7 Likes
It’s true that you feel it but to me it felt much less pronounced than the Assassination down windows which suck SO MUCH.
1 Like
We were built with energy and pooling in mind long before Sanguine Blades was ever a thing. Pooling and energy are core to the rogue class at this point. There is a case to be made for changes and updates, but doing away with energy entirely seems to be missing the point.
Our energy issues are also not nearly as bad as some say. Once you get into real content where the tanks aren’t ignoring everyone to solo the dungeon, it’s okay. Not great, but okay. And in PvP we’re more than in a great spot from what I can see so far.
Do wish we had MfD back, Shadowdance, and ever so slightly buffed Venomous wounds (+1 a tick ought to do it), and a bug change / tweak to Deathstalker so it can’t get “Stuck” but other than that we are rocking as assassination right now boys.
All this “Are you confused or incompetant…” stuff comes across as super melodramatic and whiny.
4 Likes
I am not sure what else they can do for us. We get energy return from garotte and rupture and we also have thistle tea as an Oh S%@t button if we happen to let let our bleeds fall off. I certainly don’t want more passive stuff like they have done for our AoE. Those “attack one and hit many” talents they put in (Arterial Precision and Indiscriminate Carnage) just automate what rogues have always done manually on their own.
1 Like
Do you know why? Because every other melee has it automated one way or another. Every spec got riced up with qol, making resource management easier or outright removing the resources. Gameplay wise Rogue is the spec with a broomstick when everyone else has souped up Dysons or Roombas.
1 Like
That may be the case. I don’t play any other class with any seriousness. I like my broomstick just fine, though. It may not clean up as well as a Dyson or a Roomba. But at least I am the one doing the sweeping. And it is still pretty clean when I get done.
You should really give it a try, it’s pretty eye opening.
1 Like
Are you referring to trying other classes or choosing talents that automate AoE?
Thistle Tea has existed since like, Wrath or something like that. It predates Monks by a mile. Just think of it as super-caffeine with white powder in or something if it pleases you.
1 Like
Thistle Tea has existed since the launch of WoW. But it was nerfed in TBC to get weaker and weaker as you leveled until no one bothered anymore. It wasn’t until DF when it was reintroduced as a talent and given it’s full strength again that people started using it in retail.
5 Likes
It existed in Classic. I know this because I was making it back then. You had to have the herbalist prof to pick the ingredients for it and then had to get the recipe for cooking it.
This was back when you also needed Fade Leaf for making blinding powder so you could use Blind.
9 Likes
Believe it or not the stockpile of Thistle Tea I made during Classic was still in my bank when DF reintroduced it. A pleasant surprise for me. I was holding on to the stuff purely out of nostalgia
5 Likes
strongly agree with bringing back relentless strikes- nice and easily accessible in the rogue tree as centrepoint flavour.
i’d like to see it as energy per combo point, rather than %chance for energy per combo point, as there needs to be some more incentive in the way of synergy with other combo point dependant talents for deeper/sanguine strategem.
eg. 5 energy per combo point, rather than 20% chance per combo point for 25 energy, would still reward the regular 25 energy for those weird rogues who like 5 max cp, but it would be 30-35 energy for the combo point connoisseurs among us. sus.
4 Likes
just make finishers consumes only cp instead of cp+energy and done
5 Likes
Arcane mage has something similar, but it’s a large window instead of lots of little ones.
1 Like
In my experience they don’t even have that. The mana regen you get after Arcane Surge is insane. 425% increase to mana regen and 35% increase damage is great when considering that most of my time during this window is spent casting all the free Arcane Missile procs I got from just doing my rotation and Arcane Surge itself. Arcane Surge guarantees a free cast of Arcane Missiles itself as a part of the ability.
Furthermore if you cast 4 Arcane Blast before using it you will be able to cast a full power Arcane Barrage as well. An ability mind you that cost NO MANA AND HAS NO COOLDOWN. It simple cost Arcane charges which must be nice because Rogues still got to spend energy for their finishers as well as CPs. Oh and it gives you back mana when you use it.
It’s actually wild when you play other classes to see just how differently they operate on a design level compared to Rogues. There is NO downside to using Arcane Surge. The consuming all your mana isn’t actually an opportunity cost. The ability itself negates this aspect with all the built in regen and free casting it has.
Furthermore any opportunity cost it could have, say if you deleted all those nice freebies baked into the ability itself, is not present because you still have this sweet ability called Evocation which grants 1500% mana regen over 2.7 secs and gives you clear casting and increases your intellect by 10% if you fully channel (2.7 sec) for 20 secs after for a boost negating loss damage during that time you spent channeling.
This ability has the EXACT same CD as Arcane Surge. 1.5 Min.
My experience of going out and playing other classes with builder / spender set ups similar to Rogue has been an eye opener (I have gotten to Ret Pally yet).
When I as a Rogue dump my energy pool I’m punished pretty harshly. There seems to be a design philosophy of resource management present in Rogues that is not in other classes. Few genuine instances of opportunity cost are present when I play other classes but they are a constant feature of my Rogue play and it kind of drags the experience.
You can point to Rogues performance in Mythics or Raids but as I have said before damage is fungible. Blizz can at anytime make any class / spec top DPS. They could make Prot Warrior do a 1 trillion DPS. That’s not hard nor is it indicative of the class having good game feel. Which as I intentionally go out and play other classes I’m realizing is somewhat lacking in Rogues.
Hey maybe I’m just burned out on Rogues maybe I just need put them down for an xpac but I find myself spending time thinking about how much more I enjoy how other classes feel to play while I’m playing my Rogue. And I wonder how many Ret Pallys, Arcane Mages, Fury Warriors, Affliction Locks do the same for Rogue.
7 Likes
Having played a lot of Ret and a good bit of Rogue…
Holy Power is and isn’t like Combo Points. You can’t throw more Holy Power at an ability to make it hit harder or last longer. Ret lost the talent where most 3-HP abilities would consume 4-HP to hit harder… but that was also a hard toggle. You had the talent, you had to spend 4-HP to even fire off those abilities. Of course, on the Rogue side, you’re “not playing right” if you’re not using like at least 6 CP on an ability and ideally it’s 7, with pretty much mandatory talents to let you build that many CP.
Rogue still excels at a lot of setup and control but paladin isn’t too far behind. You can talent into things like Repentance and Blinding Light and you have a Stun with cooldown reduction as you do things you normally do (though that’s going away in 11.0.5). Turn Evil works on certain targets.
But Energy vs. Mana… for sure, Ret doesn’t worry much about Mana. It might come into play if you’re spamming hard-casted heals or blessings, I guess? But to do your job of hitting things very hard, not really. I think Rogues have outgrown Energy as more abilities are CP and cooldown dependent. Energy was made to keep things from being spammable but most combat flows are about building and spending… when energy regeneration surges, it’s not like you can hit harder or faster or use abilities more often, you’re still constrained by GCD, regular cooldowns, and CPs. And in some cases/with some specs, when RNG is bad and, say, Sinister Strike doesn’t strike more than once and give more than one CP… you’re stuck just plinking away to build one combo point at a time until you have enough to make a spender hit reasonably hard. THEN you get to deal with your energy being whittled away.
Is there a dual-resource class that actually plays well/interestingly? While actually utilizing both resources.
5 Likes
My exhausted pandaren speed chugging a canteen of lukewarm tea, trying not to vomit as she chases after the tank (she has been in combat for fifteen minutes)
I think a baseline energy regen increase is in order. Thistle tea can live (I’m a sucker for heritage stuff) but make it one use on a moderate cooldown. Emergencies only sort of thing.
6 Likes