So all of these other MMO’s don’t use numbers?
Maybe those crazy games just use irrational numbers?
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They don’t have dmg meters. Dmg meters in MMOs have been a plague on this genre for decades.
They are just tools, the people are the problem.
This is kind of a silly statement, doesn’t really address the fact that dmg meters in MMOs contribute or enhance toxic behavior.
Most of the other big MMOs don’t have dmg meters, and for good reason.
You mean the big MMOs that have numbers like WoW?
Can you link a source where Blizzard is sharing their sub data?
This is a straw man argument here. Are you saying that WoW having dmg meters is responsible for it having success?
All the other big MMOs are continuing to put out expansions and new content despite not having dmg meters.
I never understood why WoW only players think that not having all the MMO players or really big player base makes a game suck or not as good as WoW.
Lord of the Rings Online has been going for almost 2 decades with around 50k daily active players. New World same deal, both of those game don’t have dmg meters.
Sigh
I didn’t make an argument, I simply called meters tools 
huh?
Never mentioned anything about the quality.
Good for them? I mean, that’s cool and all, but they don’t have any real hard content. It’s easy to not have meters when the content is faceroll.
What other MMOs have you played at a high level?
Edit: I just wanted to add here, that I often see many gamers use straw man arguments when they’re faced with criticism towards their some of their favorite games.
I get it, people don’t like when others point out flaws in things they enjoy, it is very common human behavior to get defensive.
What other MMOs have competitive gameplay at the same level as WoW?
WoW isn’t my favorite game. There’s no strawman here, meters are just tools.
WoW has lots of flaws, meters aren’t one of them.
Oh, they’re my friend, have been since day 1. Using the “it is just a tool” excuse doesn’t work here really.
People abuse the heck out of dmg meters and they use them to belittle other players.
The game is also designed around players using dmg meters, it has only gotten worse over the last 4 expansions.
The addon situation in WoW has been out of control for a long time. Probably one the main issues this game can’t attract new players. The age of the game doesn’t matter here, because the developers have continually updated the game, to keep pace with other modern MMOs.
Damage meters are widespread in FF14, GW2 and ESO.
What “big MMO” are you referring to exactly?
I just don’t understand how wanting to improve at something could be seen as antithetical to enjoying it…
FF14 bans players for using dmg meters. ESO dmg meters only track group dps and your own dps. You can’t tell how much dmg an individual player is doing in ESO. Same with GW2, the dmg meter addon doesn’t track other players like WoW’s dmg meter.
There is no MMO on the market that has an addon dmg meter like WoW. I know, I played them all. All the other MMOs require janky third party addons that parse the combat logs post fights basically.
ESO has a real time meter, but the info is pretty limited.
Edit: DMG meters are huge problem in MMOs, your initial post pretty much backs up what I’m saying here. All they do is create dumb metas, and pigeonhole players into playing “the best” spec or class.
Do you honestly think that metas are created from meters?
In PVE content, they play a huge role. People were complaining about Augs when they first launched because their contributions weren’t showing up on the meters, yet post fight parsing showed they were actually OP.
People who actually knew how the game worked knew they were OP from the start. It was blatantly obvious.
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lol, you didn’t need meters to know they were OP, but yeah, they broke meters. Thing is, even without meters, Aug would have been immediately required as meta because just having one in the group made the key feel 2-3 times smaller. Likewise, you just have to look at mage/priest/druid/pally talents and see that CDs were all going to line up to make huge AoE pulls that no other comp could pull off. Just like we already know, without meters mind you, that having an Aug/VDH/HDH/Disc or hpal/mage will makeup the S3 meta. Because again, we can look at CDs and in the DH case stops and crazy mitigation uptime and see that this is going to be an optimum group.
FF14 doesn’t actually ban anyone for using damage meters. If you really played you would know that.
ESO meters work the same as wow as long as everyone in the group is using the same meter. If they’re not you can live log, just like WoW, for real time info on ESO logs. Same with GW2, Arc is incredibly prevalent in competitive content.
Anecdotally, I haven’t seen a player get shamed for bad DPS in a long, long time. The most common use of meters in competitive warcraft is simming for optimal gear, post-raid combat analysis and for holding dev’s accountable for class balance.
I think it’s more accurate to say that when you see someone parsing far below expectations, players are inclined to look for an explanation rather than directly harass them, like “why are they dying all the time” or “did they show up in greens expecting to get carried.”
This. I’ve been a part of hundreds of keys this expac and no one is calling out others over the meters.
Imzel, I’m curious, in how many keys/raids have you’ve seen this toxic behavior? How many of said instances have you done? I looked at your progress and don’t see anything for the past few expansions, so I have to question the validity of your statements since you don’t participate in any of the content you’re talking about. Maybe you’re on another toon?