So is trolling against, or not against the rules?
If yes, then clearly the mods are useless.
If no, then then a lot of people get suspended for no reason, meaning the mods are worse then useless.
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You can find the Forum Code of Conduct here:
I’m not going to get into any sort of debate about whether a thread you feel is trolling would or would not violate the rules.
As for the mods, keep in mind that they moderate ALL the forums, not just WoW. So the one thing I will say is that they could certainly use more mods to handle the flags.
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So you’ve come to this post to give literally no relevant input.
Thanks.
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You’re asking about the forum rules and I provided a direct link to them.
You’re welcome.
I’d recommend against trolling this particular forum though. It’s heavily moderated by the Support Forum Agents (not the mod-squad).
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You got quite relevant input. You got accurate information on forum moderation.
What you are seeking is information on a specific poster and their alts. Blizzard is not going to discuss that.
What I can say, is that Mods see each report as individual and don’t look the pattern of behavior. Hence, concern trolling and walking grey lines can go on for a long time.
It is also the case, that on their own, each thread is technically not a rules violation, besides possibly spam. That they are disruptive, intentional, and a problem is true. But that their threads are not technically a violation on their own, is also true.
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I made a post about such behavior over in General Discussion, suggesting that there be an option to report people suspected of it. If specific investigations into this could be prompted, it would solve this flaw:
No, it was a rhetorical question we both knew the answer to, and you only linked to avoid the point of the question.
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If all you’re looking for folks to agree with you, then that isn’t what this forum is for. You got info on the forum mods and how they work. What you believe is or isn’t against the rules isn’t part of the topic. Any personal believe on a given person/poster isn’t relevant to this forum or the overall topic.
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No.
Information for the wrong question.
It is if that’s the topic, and can be shown objectively to be true.
So what is your non-ritorical question then?
So far, you asked if there were mods, yes there are, and if trolling is avainst the rules, which you can see in the rules under the trolling section. But that question was allegedly rhetorical.
So what hasn’t been answered yet?
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Yes, there are and they review the various reports they get in accordance to our policies. As others mentioned though, just because a thread is reported doesn’t mean it is considered to be against policy.
These forums are here for players to discuss aspects of the game with each other and to provide suggestions and feedback on what they would like to see. That may include topics that have been discussed before, or that some disagree with or feel shouldn’t be in game. The suggestions are still valid, even if others believe that the person posting them isn’t being genuine.
Trolling is, however, a lot of what people consider trolling, isn’t. As I mentioned above, the threads aren’t necessarily considered trolling just because it’s a subject that has been discussed before, or you feel the person is not being genuine in their request.
What is more often considered trolling are the comments folks post in the thread, such as constantly accusing someone of posting with their alts, or accusing them of trolling/spamming and numerous other, often disparaging, comments.
I would clarify, their alleged alts. As I have noted previously in similar threads, the accusations I’ve seen of folks posting on alts are often, though not in every case, wrong.
For instance, let’s speak to those generally considered the “T’s”. Often they all rolled into one, but which very much are not the same person.
Yes, we have a number of similar names, which feels purposeful, but that doesn’t make them the same person or otherwise associated with one another. That isn’t to say that one person hasn’t posted on multiple accounts over time. I know of one that has adopted a new posting character over time, as previous accounts were no longer viable to post. Nothing nefarious with that.
I can sort of agree here. I will say though, moderators do see patterns and can recognize names that they’ve seen before. Can it be missed in the grand scheme of things? Yes, but they aren’t oblivious to some troublesome folks and do deal with them as they are verified. That is the trick, verification. A lot of times the suspicions and accusations I’ve seen of the person being the same aren’t at all verified. There just isn’t evidence that they are, and to be clear, it is more than just looking at an IP to see if it is the same.
Assuming we are just talking about the threads themselves and not the alleged posting on alts to create a narrative I’d say it is opinion. The subject matter often controversial and can be divisive for some, but I would argue that it not necessarily intentional or a problem.
Could it be intentional? Yes, but in most cases the suggestion is still very much valid, which is what the moderators are looking at. With no other indicators, other than some folks saying “we don’t want you to post this”, it should otherwise be allowed.
The issue isn’t exactly looking into sock-puppeting, our moderators do that all the time. It’s that our moderation team would be unable to communicate to the reporting person that their accusation proved to be false, which has been the case in many of these instances. That nothing happens as the result of a report isn’t usually seen as the accusation was incorrect, but that the moderators aren’t doing anything about it.
The most I can say, Idontknowhow, is that we’re very much aware of the current limitations on the forums and how easy it is for some to use alternate characters to both report and support posts and that it is being worked on.
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I was unaware that moderators did investigate this. The specific problem I raised in my own thread is that given how disruptive sockpuppeting is in its own right, there should be a flag option for it.
I also did not know this.
Understood. Thank you for the communication.
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The problem is that clearly the intent is harmful, and the bad-faith spamming is doing harm to actual people. By keeping these issues constantly on the front page of the forums disingenuously, almost in a parody of real opinions that real people might hold pushed out to the bleeding edge of reasonability, they’re giving people a platform to voice awful, harmful opinions that don’t quite violate the forum’s rules, but instead just create a general dogpiling aura of non-acceptance and anger.
Having multiple threads up at all times about the same subjects, in a way that no actual person could actually feel like needs to be discussed in infinite variations all in new threads, lets people who feel like “the lifestyles of other people are being forced on me” feel justified. Is that a nonsense opinion? Yes. Should those be the people who get account actions? Also yes. But there’s also apparently nothing not-allowed about being baited into saying “I don’t like this and I wish you people would go away, why do you want to ruin the game that I play” as long as they don’t break out slurs and attacks.
These threads are serving up a platform for debate on issues that shouldn’t be up for debate on a platter, with a sprig of parsley garnish, that’s literally the point of them, and apparently somehow everyone’s hands are tied?
As long as that’s the official standpoint of the moderator team, the trolling will go on. With protection, even. Setting out a template for exactly what people can get away with if they want to be disruptive and turn the front page of the General forums into a constant discordant brawl, and we’ve already seen other people taking up the same style and tone over time.
You guys make the rules. If people are being consistently disruptive, rules-lawyering their way into making the forums a more hateful and less accepting place by baiting other people into doing their dirty work and giving them a bad-faith exaggerated target dummy to rail against, they don’t have to be swearing and attacking and using slurs themselves to be seen to the door.
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Unless they clearly state “I’m making those threads to stir the pot” then applying what you think someone else is doing doesn’t magically make them doing what you think they’re doing. No amount of trying to bend or twist what was said to favor what outcome you want.
If you think folks are voicing anything harmful or the like on the forums…then report the post. The mods whom take reports will look over them and action anyone that they deem are breaking the rules.
Report the threads as spam. If someone or a group of some people are making threads about the same thing in a short time frame, report them for such. And no, you’re applying something that isn’t there as…they’re threads, not people yelling in the streets.
Report the treads. The forums can’t reasonably stop someone from make a given thread about something, nor can the mods action someone before it happens.
To be blunt, the forums isn’t going to be for folks with only a given view point that goes with a given person’s mindset. Not everyone going to agree with everyone else and anyone can disagree with someone that won’t magically be trolling.
No, they enforce the rules. And they’re not going to make rules that cater to a given group. The folks on top made it a general and less ‘Doing X will get Y and doing A will have B actions’. If you think the rules should be changed, I believe that’s better suited for the general forum or the website forum.
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They are usually flagged into oblivion as soon as they appear, and then get restored with flag protection. And the merry-go-round goes round.
The pattern of behavior is clear, and so is the intent from the way that the posters react, or don’t react, and then go on to make a new thread on barely a different subject along the same lines the next day to stir the pot again.
Normally I’d say yes, I’m no mind reader, no one can really know what lead someone to say this here, now. But any regular to GD can tell you exactly what this group of trolls is doing, and why. It’s basic pattern recognition that for whatever reason the moderator team isn’t applying, and that inaction is allowing behavior to thrive that is creating a real, hostile environment for some people.
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Your overall argument is beautifully worded and well phrased.
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I deeply appreciate the insight into the current forum policy, Vrakthris. That being said, I do feel like current policy might be failing to recognize the harm of disingenuous posts. I suppose that people being mistaken for alts of other people is one consequence of that. It occurs to me that other forum users may be attributing patterns of behavior to alt-hopping that could just as easily be chalked up to that general feeling of inorganic behavior. Two people pretending to be invested in a topic will likely adopt similar behaviors in an attempt to fit the same mold.
I sort of get how it could be hard to make that call. As a simple player, it’s easy to look at things other users say and go “What would their motive be for phrasing this thread in such a provocative way?” and go with whatever conclusion the preponderance of evidence draws, but I assume the moderators probably abide by stricter standards.
And at what point does one draw a distinction between being socially awkward and intentionally phrasing things in the worst ways to provoke an argument? It’s easy for me to understand why the mods exercise restraint.
I just hope that the one user I’ve observed being exceptionally aggressive about posting these very inorganic feeling threads that feel like they’re designed to bait out vile responses eventually gets caught in the net. …Or bored, I guess.
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Feedback belongs in General Discussion. Vrakthris and the other SFAs in Customer Support don’t make policy and are not liaisons with those who do.
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That is your certainly your opinion, Jalanili, but I don’t see a clear intent to be harmful or that their suggestions are in bad faith. That is the trouble, we can’t know without evidence indicating that. We have to justify our actions, you don’t.
It is giving people an opportunity to voice some things, I wouldn’t necessarily say that some of what they may voice doesn’t quite violate forum rules. I know a number of comments that I’ve seen throughout several threads that have and they were penalized accordingly.
I would argue that many of those same people would feel that way regardless of the number of threads that may be made, unless that number were zero.
There are a lot of threads that cover the same or similar subject that exist at the same time. That doesn’t generally run contrary to our policies and isn’t necessarily considered spam. If the number of threads seems to be impeding normal forum discussion then our Community Management and Moderation teams may decide to consolidate those threads into one or more central thread. That tends to happen when one subject monopolizes the majority of threads. We’re not even remotely close to that.
I’m sorry, but simply because there are people out there who may disagree with a topic, doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t allow the discussion of the topic. The topic of diversity and inclusion, character options and any number of similar subjects is a valid one. We’re not going to silence that feedback because some people are tired of the discussion or because some may feel that the persons requesting it is being disingenuous.
I would say, focus on reporting the individual posts that are disruptive, those that derail any productive discussion. If the subject of the thread is valid feedback/suggestion, then anything that attempts to disrupt that discussion would be what is trolling.
When one can actually verify the difference.
I understand that it is hard to have a good discussion on a lot of this, as we are not really able to draw attention to specific examples. There is simply no way I can provide specifics on what I can see, and where I see a lot of the confusion may be.
From the point of view of moderation, we simply cannot assume motivation in most of these cases. We look at the thread itself.
Is what is posted a viable suggestion or bit of feedback that doesn’t contain any language/subject matter that is inappropriate? Does that person have a right to express that feedback?
Maybe if these threads weren’t reported into oblivion, completely derailed, or the OP accused of being a troll, they might feel that a productive discussion is being maintained and therefore they don’t need to create a new one. I don’t know, I haven’t encountered one that hasn’t yet.
It is also likely true, that until they see their feedback/suggestions implemented into the game that they feel they need to continue to make their voice heard, especially in spite of those who continually try to silence it.
I feel any further dialog will not really be possible given the limitations on specifics I will be able to talk about when it comes to others so I’m going to lock this one up. I just wanted to try to provide some insight where I could. Thanks, all!
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