I am asking sincerely. This has been my beef with rogues from day 1.
Crowd Control arguably the best in the game. i.e. disarm, sap, blind, gouge, smoke bomb, and worst of all 10 seconds or more of stuns at a time. (Its to the point where us other people would also like to play the game… a person should never die to another class while being stunned from start to finish.) However, rogues identity lies here arguably. This is what they do… that is fine then they should not be top tier in any of these other categories.
Survivability is unmatched the best in the game imo. (It goes unsaid that basically every rogue duel either ends with them vanishing, resetting the duel until they get the desired outcome or I forfeit the duel). With tools such as cloak of shadows, evasion, feint death, sprint, vanish, shadow step, cheat death. A rogue should rarely die unless he is careless or impatient or trying to save someone else and gets desperate. People will say, “well when we are out of stealth and don’t have CDs we are squishy…” well, get in line behind every other class that cant just vanish to escape death.
Mobility is above average. With the speed boost in stealth, the short CD of sprints, shadow step. If you want to know about mobility issues, look up a ret or a DK.
Burst is close to the top if not the best. If a rogue does not kill you in an opener… he will vanish, reset and then kill you. There is no skill level that can overcome not having a trinket and sitting in a stun until death. If you are lucky enough to be a paladin or something similar to having a bubble… no matter. Just vanish, wait it out for a CD or 2 come back for kill. You have enough CD to prevent a person from running away during that time anyway. (Sap, blind, distract, gouge)
Damage over time is still insane, for a short period of time it is the best, even affi locks are not producing numbers like that. A rogue still has just as good if not better bleeds then a druid. Only difference is at least I can move or play the game against a druid rather then sit through a 10 second stun and wait for death. (Let me play the game)
Self heals… oh the one area that might not be top tier… At least you still have a button that is going to generate health and is on a relatively small CD. It is still better then DH, mage, warlock, warrior, and some others.
Sorry for the venting, but it is infuriating that a class can be this over powered, nearly every patch, nearly every season, nearly every expansion. Before someone says “then just play one.” I can’t, I feel like it takes a curtain personality to play, if you don’t play a rogue, you will understand what I mean. It is the one class that ALWAYS has a chance to win, regardless of the circumstances. (or at least draw, as they run away.) It feels toxic to think a class that you cant see, will render you unable to play the game, while they kill you from 100% to 0%. It needs to be fixed.
you posted this exact same thing in another thread… so ill just copy my response.
TLDR: NO
So first - they dont balance around duels.
Rogue survivability (in particular assassination) is not great. especially when match against dot classes like aff lock, spriest, unholy DK (the literal god of arena)
rogue mobility is on par with other melee like warrior/feral. its better than paladin/dk/enhance but worse than DH.
Sub rogue burst is really good but still isnt able to set up burst quite like warrior/paladin/dh. vanish resets for sub are pretty decent, but for assassination its not that great. assassinations damage isnt quite as up front and their opener burst doesnt hit as hard or last as long as some others. Ret/warrior/dh/feral burst is way better.
also this whole vanish and wait 1 min for your cds to reset isnt a thing you can do in arena. your partners are going to get really annoyed with you when all you do is leave combat > wait for burst CDs.
garrote damage is the only dot that is doing well for assassination and it doesnt do as much damage as dots from unholy or shadow priest. the main difference is the silence on it.
dot damage for sub isnt great.
if you think rogue bleeds are as good as feral idk what to tell you. feral druids out here doing 30-40k dps sustained against 3 targets. assasination has to wait for a vanish or reset into stealth in order to set up garrote again. if you let them do that, its on you.
-DH has Fodder… it heals them for 45% of their health instantly, has a rather high proc chance, and they have the mobility needed to kite you till it procs from them spamming throw glaive at you which is also a snare.
-Mage has a 40% heal while they are in ice block, passive healing from barrier, and altar time.
-warlock has all the healing in the world idk what youre talking about here.
-warrior (fury) has great self healing… its actually all they have. Arms has so much burst that they shouldnt be able to do a lot of self healing. its always been that way.
i feel like you cant beat a rogue in a duel and thats what youre basing your post around.
I could get behind bliz nerfing the silence on garrote. the damage nerf is way over the top. especially given that DKs just exist.
only affliction warlocks can heal that much, Destro can heal once and a bit more if they use DC.
Healthstone has 3 charges but it will reset once you are out of combat.
Against melee like rogue DH, DK, Warrior does not even help if the player is good.
OP hitting all the classic tropes of “rogue is overpowered”:
laundry list of defensive abilities, which always look scary, until you realize you can make a similar list for every class (bonus points for including mutually exclusive talents to make the list bigger)
mixing playstyles belonging to different specs in the same list, giving the impression that rogues can have both sub’s burst and assassination’s high damage dots at the same time
cherry picking scenarios where the target have no gear/no CD/no healer/no one to peel for them, essentially expressing outrage at the rogue winning in a situation where a winning condition has been (probably painstakingly) set up
not acknowledging or discussing possible ways to counter the rogue as if the party opposing the rogue was always completely passive and helpless
You’re raising propaganda. Every class has tools to deal with X. Lots of hijackers attempting to attract unnecessary attention to our class lately.
Ferals gained all rogue passives, have rake stun which is like cs but with damage, maim which is like kid ey shot but with damage, feral frenzy which is like marked for death but with damage, can roar to incapacitate that does not break on bleeds, can cyclone 3x where rogues blind once per 2 min.
Every class has tools to deal with things, stop cherry picking. Hit thorns and watch people kill themselves for 20k hits, use your 2 survival instincts for 50% damage reduction, actually heal and root on the run.
You’ve gone and done a great job of writing out a vent essay, but that’s all this is.
Rogue is a hard class to master. When you come up against the great ones, they’ll make you rethink however many years you’ve spent on WoW and what for.
Ive melted some rogue players on my rogue and been handed my homework by other rogue players.
You might not be as good as you think at this game and that’s fine, we can’t all be Messi. But we can all enjoy the game and the level we play at
I don’t want to make this post to big but just to address a couple things. I understand they don’t balance around duels, that would be impossible, but they are naturally happening in PVP all the time, right? In bgs I should not need a healer in my back pocket everywhere I go just to survive an opener from an enemy that I cannot see.
I would concede they are 2nd or 3rd in mobility behind feral (who can shape out of roots) and potentially warrior, who can blade storm double charge and leap, but its light years ahead of the other mentioned.
Your burst is way off… I have never been unable to play my class against any other class then rogue. Yes, they nearly kill me in a single stun but rogue I might as well just lean back in my seat and wait for a rez timer. I will not get the opportunity to use a cd if wanted to.
Why should a rogue dot damage do as much as a DK? Dk does not have the mobility, their survivability was gutted last patch, and their burst is pretty lackluster.
I will give you the healing of a rogue is not great, but all of those specs other than mage are damage dependent in order to heal (minus lock health stone) … If you can kill them in an opener, it does not matter.
you should be utilizing any healing a druid can do and thinking ahead of time on barkskin. you’re raising propaganda. Assassination is a bit nutty but so are feral bleeds, come off it man. Rogues get rooted like anyone else, we cloak then you stun / incap/ cyclone etc and then root again with a seamless cc chain.
If you’re waiting, then you’re dead against any class.
Agree with pretty much everything you say except this. Even for Assasination. Rogues don’t have great self healing yes, although we have some through Crimson Vial, Leeching Poison, Recuperator and Soothing Darkness.
In conjunction, we do have plenty of survivability tools: Cloak of Shadows, Cheat Death, Vanish, Evasion, Feint, multiple CCs to peel…
It’s THE most OPPRESSIVE class there is and play there is. No other class comes close. What is blizz thinking to make such a abusive class. Only person who has fun playing is the rogue. No one else. No one else. How is this make sense?
Im not sure what spec you are but As a feral you should not have a big problem with a rogue. I sugest watching some glad stramers, this seems like a skill issue.
im pretty sure they dont balance around BGs either.
As a DH you should really never get surprised by a rogue. every time you go to a new objective you can see where the rogue is.
a few tips on surviving a rogue.
if you are in a full kidney, trinket it and stun right after. youve just ruined their burst.
if it is a sub rogue, and go opens again. Blur and youve ruined them.
also youre a DH just run.
its light years ahead of paladin and DK. but also paladin and DK press W to win.
Youve never been killed by a ret paladin inside of a 3 second disorient?
Youve never had an Unholy DK that just wont die summon an army of health bars that just passively rot you?
Youve never been hit by a 300k glacial spike from a frost mage?
Youve never been crit for 200k by a mortal strike with a follow up 100k execute?
Youve never seen yourself cast the hunt on an unsuspecting person, crit them for 150k, meta ontop of them and then death sweep for 80k?
“I will not get the opportunity to use a cd if wanted to.” - bro press your trinket. thats what it is for.
Rogue dot damage is NOT as high as a DK. it is not as passive as a DK. and it is not as available as a DK.
Garrote’s damage was high out of stealth, and you as a DH can see where they are and completely ruin their opener.
i also hope youre not saying DK survivability and burst was gutted, because it wasnt. they got a huge nerf that was needed and they are still doing a casual 40k dps to everyone around them and they dont die.
-Fodder is not damage dependent. it can proc from throw glaive. you can kite people till you get a proc and heal from it.
-demo lock shields are passive. healing from drain life is not damage dependent. their healing isnt bad at all.
-Fury healing might as well be passive. fury survivability isnt a complaint for anyone playing it.
im no rank 1 warrior/rogue (the two classes im playing atm) but you clearly need to just leave the forums and try to get better. youre on here complaining instead of getting better.