I…just can’t. I’m done with you.
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Good, we can just glare at each other incredulously.
Then why are you here, acting like the way it was actually, legitimately, canonically was presented as throughout WoW’s history is… Not that at all?
I call bullcrap on your late-in-the-day backpeddle.
Nobody is disputing that Tyrande’s character was written as an incompetent leader among her male counterparts, and frequently has to be rescued by men.
The only dispute comes in what that representation looks like; you think it’s fine for the female military leader, veteran of multiple wars over ten thousand years to be canonically bad at her job. Others see this as sexism, given no male characters in power positions are written this way. “It had problematic roots” is a delightful statement while you defend a problematic depiction.
No, I called you a white knight. I never talked about your desire for other white knights. You’re really bad at reading.
You’ve tried your “but whaddabout the Horde” defense. It failed.
You tried to cite the wiki and had that blow up in your face.
You tried to claim a 50-50 split when simple math showed it closer to 65-35.
You’re defending a pretty sexist characterization because “well, it’s always been that way,” as if a ten thousand year veteran just cannot learn from her mistakes and the only way the devs could have possibly shown her is as a foolish girl.
And when confronted with these flaws, when forced to see them all, what do you say to it all?
“Well, it’s been like this for 20 years, so change is impossible!!”
You have said quite a lot about yourself, Zerde. I hope you’re very comfortable with it.
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That isn’t what is going on though, as has been explained.
Once it’s in the game, it’s separated from real life.
They take inspiration, and make it their own thing.
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Your explanations are as irrelevant as your post count.
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It’s not separated from real-life, when they use common real-world racist tropes.
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I swear, I hate ignorant people trying to tell us what’s not going on. No wonder you, Baal and others get tired of having to explain this stuff over and over and people STILL not getting it
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I am saying it is not as bad(especially compared to the Horde and especially in the context of the time) as you make it out to be.
We literally had Varian going out and starting fights when we least could afford it! It was called the Battle for Lordearon! And having to be frozen/rescued by Jaina to boot! If its ok for Varian to get that treatment then so should any other female character. If Tyrande was only one doing stupid things all the time, sure that is something to call out, but as it is plenty of men were doing the same thing(heck the reason Malfurion got captured by Xavius back in Legion was because he let his rage blind him! and yet not one is complaining about that). The reason the Skyfire is a hunk of rubble is because both Rogers/Genn decided to go out and attack the Horde.
Which is again silly and something I am calling you out on both counts. I have tried to be as balance as I possibly can, acknowledging Warcraft could have been better but that was a product of its time and that you should acknowledge Warcraft has tried its best, within the confines of its own lore to try to shape a better if impefect world.
I think there has to be some line somewhere, the problem is it is a line in a ever shifting desert.
Then you’re just out of touch and oblivious to how this all looks from the perspective of a non-white audience, and clearly refuse to see that.
Which is not remotely the same as a ten thousand year war veteran and military leader acting like an incompetent…
Why am I bothering? You’re too blinded by the white to see anything I’m telling you.
Which, frankly, has never been remotely balanced in the least. This is neither new nor interesting. You adamantly refuse to see any perspective beyond your own. You assume that because you cannot see it, it must not exist, even when it is shown to you in the only color scheme you seem capable of understanding; black and white.
That is the logic used by those too comfortable in their white majority to accept change.
I’m not in the white majority, so no thank you. I don’t need to sit idly by and let ongoing issues pass by with a simple shrug of “well it’s always been this way, so it can never change”.
That might make you comfortable, but it’ll never be for me.
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You do realize I am not american/white and I get to see this from a different and hopefully more bird eye view perspective then you. And before you say anything else, my country has had to deal with three different occupying powers(including the US) and now we nominally have good relationship with them.
10,000 years of relative peace with only two wars in the very distant past where Tyrande’s involvement are questionable at best! She was not fighting the entire time.
If I am color blind I think so are you. And so is some of the criticism of the book. Based on what I can tell the book probably did need to go though an edit or two more and certainly has questionable material, but I don’t they were outright racist.
Again, not white and living in a country that generally does not have many(although there are still some) racist elements.
I see it more as a “it will change, but it going to take a long time to change” and that is kinda folly to criticize it for not being progressive enough when it was relatively progressive for what it during its day. A few years ago Warcraft/Blizzard would be considered fairly anti LGBT+, nowadays people would say it is the opposite. Similarly, WoW narrative has change to allow for more female characters and characters of color(heck, the new paladin hero from Hearthstone was a black woman)
You literally do not. I’ve already made clear in this thread that I’m not white, multiple times.
Try harder, try hard.
Cool.
My parents’ country has been a proxy battlefield for the US and other nations since before either of us were born.
Racism is still bad, 'kay?
Cool.
I’m a brown girl living in America who has a very noticable scar on my body to prove that racism is still real here.
Know how Blizzard got to that point where they’ve finally, in the last literal couple of years, started to address their issues regarding racist depictions, sexism, homophobia, etc?
By people speaking up about it.
Not because people idly sat by and waited. Because they did the opposite.
Now you’re just joking.
Oh, hell, there’s a whole single black woman??? And she’s a paladin?!?
You’re right Zerde, racism is solved in Anaheim.
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Hun? Can I seriously ask why are you wasting your time with him? Dude honestly thinks having one black paladin in a card game is somehow going to fix WoWs flagrant problems
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And I never said you were not. Try harder yourself.
Racism is bad, but the way to change those attitudes take generations. Those are problems that anyone can and normally does fall into.
Its more like people actually did the hard work and got the ball rolling on making it so legislation was implemented that changed the attitude. Speaking up can only get you so far.(not that that is not important, but us arguing about it or on twitter here is likely not going to radically change anything either)
More like an acknowledgement of them trying to change. That these change are a slow process to the lore. In same vein I didn’t suddenly expect a whole wave of gay characters being added but at least Matthias/Shaw was a start.
Oh please, general was filled with threads about how Flynn/Matthias being in a relation was them shoving gay characters down everyone’s throats.
And here you are putting words in my mouth. I thought you were though or something?
You are straight up implying I must be white if I have a different perspective than you.
You tried harder. You failed harder.
Blizzard has started making changes.
It did not take generations.
You just.
Keep.
Failing.
You know Blizzard is not a government, right Zarde? They didn’t make those changes because the art team and the janitorial staff proposed legislation that was voted on by the story team, forcing the developers to change in a less racist direction.
You know that, right?
Yup.
One prominent gay couple.
Homophobia, along with racism, is solved in Anaheim.
Honestly? Because until today I thought Zarde was just a bit trollish, a bit Ultra Alliance Nationalistic, but otherwise harmless and a decent person behind the screen.
I suppose having my view of the human behind the avatar is just too jarring for me and I’m hoping, praying, that this was all just a giant misunderstanding and we’d come out of this at some level of understanding.
I need to stop looking for the best in some people here. That low key secret optimist in me needs to get checked before visiting the forums.
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I wasn’t talking to you nor was it addressed to you.
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Kettle calling the pot black? Which is the reason I mentioned it btw.
You were the one implying I must be white, that I am not seeing this from the “prespective of a non white audience”. I am non-white and I definitely have a different perspective then you.
And yet your still complaining. And considering these changes took about 20-30 years it has been a “generation”.
Maybe look at the mud on your face before saying I keep failing.
They made those decision because Warcraft as a story has roots in Tolkien’s, popular culture and human literature that can be considered problematic now. That in order to keep said coherence they still need kept some of these problematic traits. As an example, I recall Bael going off on how the troll accent is racist/problematic and yet unless you are willing to just retcon their manner of speech there isn’t a viable solution to it.
And yet your were doing something worse, putting things in my mouth that I did not say.
Or we both just have a different view on this entire thing and we will never see eye to eye on it.
Not everything needs to be said. But me and Alysna both knew what you were trying to IMPLY with the hearthstone comment
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No you don’t. You misconstrue it in the way the fits your own biases of me/my views.
We already know what your views are. Nothing to really misconstrue
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And yet you think complacency is the key element to promote change, despite the fact all evidence shows it isn’t. You argue that “it takes generations”, even though you know it doesn’t. You only even care right now because someone mentioned your favorites, and that upset you enough to outright lie, to outright misrepresent, to outright deny reality itself.
Come back when you’re willing to exist in the same reality as the rest of us.
Horrible defense here. “It’s okay, because the inspiration material was also racist, mysogynistic and homophobic”.
Great look, Zarde.
And yet, you’re the one who has gone out of their way to tell me that my perspective is wrong, gone out of your way to defend racism in media, argued mysogyny is fine if it stems from older material, and claimed a single homosexual relationship is evidence Blizzard has no issues with homophobia anymore. No, this isn’t a matter of different perspectives on a singular subject.
I was, frankly, wrong about you and that’s all on me. I own that. I unfairly judged you as a decent person, and for that I’m sorry.
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