There is (so much) more to a class than its rotation. Or at least that used to be true.
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The rotation is what I’m doing most of the time, so it’s the most important part. No amount of flashy utility makes up for a mostly-dead damage toolkit and a one-button “rotation”.
Plus, it’s not like BC Hunters blew post-BC Hunters out of the water in terms of utility either. No Disengage leap, no camouflage, no immunity, no knockback, no Master’s Call… basically most of the cool stuff hadn’t been invented yet.
P.S. Yeah, yeah, some stuff is removed too. No baseline Scatter Shot, no Scare Beast, no Eyes of the Beast, no Readiness, no Distracting Shot, etc. The point is there is little to nothing I miss about BC. Most of my favourite Hunter gameplay elements were introduced afterwords, mainly in WotLK, Cata, and MoP. Namely the best ability in the game, Disengage (the leap version).
EDIT: My rough preference for Hunter iterations is:
MoP > WoD > Cata > WotLK > BFA > Legion > BC > Classic
WotLK is the toughest choice. There are some things I really loved about it (huge toolkit, first introduction of many iconic abilities and playstyles, ranged Survival) while there are some things I really hated and don’t miss (mana, standstill DPS, minimum range/melee). I definitely enjoyed it then more than I do BFA Hunter now, but I wouldn’t go back to it if I had the chance.
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I would agree, though as far as the specs themselves go, I’m actually placing Cata as number 1.
It very much improved on the old Survival spec(as well as some class specific stuff,mana now gone being one of those).
But more importantly, Cata held the more interesting talents for Survival, if you compare it to what we got with MoP and partially even WoD.
I found the talents in MoP/WoD to not really fit the old Survival at all.
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I definitely do, because with the Specializations we get pigeon-holed into a single perk. Main reason why I’m looking forward to Classic is not only the original maps and quests, but the fact that Hunters used to be both close-combat AND ranged. If you moved within x number of meters, your character would use their close-combat weapon. Back up, and you’d use your bow. Now you can choose to either be long-ranged or close-combat, not both. And how BM has really cool pets exclusive to it, but the bow attacks are boring and basic. MM is my preferred Spec due to the variety of bow attacks at my disposal. With BM, combat feels extremely passive…
And I had basically jumped from Wrath (last time I played) to BfA, so the change in how Hunters played was a huge shock to me when I re-joined last December.
I’ve been playing a Hunter for just over 10 years now (since WOTLK) And I can say that beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the worst I have ever seen this class. When the LEgion pre-patch launched on live I was so excited! I logged onto my hunter and was immediately met with heartbreak and disappointment; the fast and exciting class that I had loved since day 1 had been replaced by a lumpy and uninteresting mess! BM was completely dependent on RNG and IMO had the absolute worst artifact in Legion, MM was so boring I would literally play it at night just to make myself sleepy and SV was just an ugly unfinished lump that absolutely no one asked for. I am convinced that the class designer(s) for Legion either absolutely hated Hunters or has never played one in their life!
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The talents of Cataclysm were still in talent trees that were specific to each spec, so that makes sense. In MoP and WoD the talents were shared between all specs so you got a bit of each spec (e.g. Dire Beast, Barrage, Exotic Munitions being BM/MM/SV themed respectively)
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Idd they were.
The part that I did not like.
Sure, in WoD, SV got the Exotic Munitions talent. It was okay.
But as far as the SV theme went, if remembering correctly, that munitions-talent was what we got. The rest(utility excluded), was BM/MM-focused.
Warning: mostly unstructured stream of thought ahead.
I said before that I think the Classic and TBC iterations were ultimately worse to play for me, but I don’t want to downplay how bad 7.0 was. The thing about Classic and TBC was they were good enough for the time, and there was a lot of nice utility to make up for the bare-boned, dull core playstyle. Every expansion felt like an improvement but Legion just felt like such a massive step back.
I’ll never forget the day of July 19th 2016, the launch of 7.0, because it was my worst day of WoW ever. Unlike you, I saw it coming. I followed the beta threads and saw the progress from cautious optimism to despair. Just about every single major concern was ignored. It’s like they viewed the beta as a demo of the finished product instead of a testing ground and it was evident that they couldn’t care less about Hunter feedback. You had people around saying “Stop crying! It’s not as bad as people say! It’s only beta! You’ll like it when you try it! You’ll get used to it!”. All of this was wrong. It was just as bad as the feedback suggested and almost nothing noteworthy was fixed before live. I do think it’s better NOW but it look several years and I still think it’s worse than what came before Legion.
7.0 was the first expansion systems patch I actually dreaded and on the day it came out the realisation that I was stuck with that new version of the class for at least several years made me want to quit right then and there. Both BM and MM just played awfully with maximal downtime, a ton of useful stuff was outright removed, and my favourite of the three specs was effectively deleted. People graduated from “it’s only beta, things will change” to “we don’t have our artifacts” but a) that’s not an excuse; classes should be mostly complete in their playstyle and mechanics long before max level and not be dependent on a feature that isn’t released yet and b) frankly the artifacts did not fix it.
Oh, and can we appreciate how 7.0 was when they pruned Distracting Shot and Explosive Trap knockback when they were both highly useful on very last fight of the current raid at the time, Archimonde of HFC? Boy, that was fun having to explain to my raid why I could no longer help control adds on that fight. Really added to the class fantasy, right?
While it’s generally considered meme-worthy to say the developers don’t play your class, I really do believe the people in charge of the Hunter rework had minimal experience with the class. If I hear someone say something like “BM needs time to manage its pet in its rotation” and “If you’re GCD capped then focus isn’t a concern” I would confidently say whoever said those words had no clue how the Hunter class worked, and both those things were stated by Celestalon in our class feedback threads. There are just too many decisions along the way that any person who knew the class would have avoided.
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Well this is the place for that.
There is quite a lot of this that I agree with, and that is saying something.
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https://wod-talent-grid-maker.appspot.com/talentgridmaker
You also have Wyvern Sting and arguably Thrill of the Hunt (was originally an SV talent) and Glaive Toss.
The 1st and 3rd tiers seem to be pretty spec-agnositc and the 5th tier is mostly BM-focused. The other tiers each have an ability on them which can be said to fit Survival.
Also, everything important from the Cata tree ended up being baseline (e.g. Improved Serpent Sting, Serpent Spread) and all the passive +damage talents were no longer necessary, so I don’t see much of a problem.
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While sure, Wyvern Sting was originally a SV talent, I wouldn’t exactly call it something that enhanced the playstyle(theme) of SV in WoD. But…fair enough.
Remind me again, what was it that TotH did during WoD? It has been changed and moved so much that I can’t remember.
(Also, I should’ve probably added, that just because some talent was part of Survival in the past, does not mean that it actually catered towards the specs fantasy).
Glaive Toss is one example of this…I’m not a fan of these niche abilities that has no real tye in to your specialiazation.
(Which is part of what I don’t like about some of the current BM talents on live).
Spitting Cobra - is a masked turret. Made to look like a beast.
Barrage - no thx…
In short, Glaive Toss did nothing to enhance the playstyle of the old SV. It did not even use your ranged weapon. You have a gun/bow, why throw a glaive?
Again, depends on what you mean by ‘fit’.
I was looking more at how the talents in Cata were more focused on enhancing the playstyle of your current spec, in general.
I always thought that this is what talents should do for you.
Granted that some might’ve preferred the more…general, approach we got with MoP/WoD.
This is something I also like with the current talent-system. That talents are focused on your current spec.
Having said that, some(a lot) talents we got, needs improving still. But the system(focus) in itself, I like.
If you look at my proposed design for ranged SV here: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/4th-spec-pre-legion-survival-spec-fantasy/47579?u=briz-zenedar
You see in the talent-section that there are very few abilities you can get from there.
Essentially, there is only Dire Frenzy and Resourcefulness that are on that level.
Dire Frenzy - is meant to be a change of pace(alternative focus spender to your quick shot) for those who would not want as much focus on DoTs as the other 2 talents on that row has. It’s also meant to help you with solo stuff(pet utility + threat).
If people don’t like the name as it used to be a BM-talent, we can just change it…
Resourcefulness is meant to focus on your traps and how you decide to use them. IMO, it’s a fun(and new) way to add in some extra utility to the class as well.
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ah, tol barad. those are some good pvp memories!
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Ever since they changed/pruned Hunters in legion I’ve been unable to play mine. MM is so boring, BM is ok, but there’s only one way to play it and that gets old after awhile. Survival I enjoy but I’ll always miss the ranged version.
BM should’ve been the melee spec. This topic has been beaten to death but it would’ve made a ton more sense.
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Agreed. Just look at Rexxar. He’s clearly a BM hunter and he dual wields axes. I would love for my Orc Hunter to be able to do that!
I have played hunter since vanilla. I too think Cataclysm was our best. Most of my fights vs warriors, or feral were very close which imo indicated reasonable balance.
I stopped caring, in fact the lackluster changes over the majority of the time wow has been around not only made me care less about playing the hunter, but the game over all.
I recently came back and I am having a good time, but that is probably because I do not raid, I do not pvp hardcore. These days I am just another casual. If I cared and cared to be competitive, hunter in its current state would drive me away from the game again.
I knew when hunters were pruned that it would kill the class.
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I like the Lone Wolf play style a lot, especially in world PVP. However, it is underpowered enough that I’m playing less and less.
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Raise hands
Class fantasy pruning…thats blizzards explanation of ruining a once amazing setup of hunter specs. Yeah they pruned other classes too…but…soon after most classes got those things back…(druid hibernate). The problem with hunter getting pruned so hard is in the same moment melee gained 1000 gap closers while hunter lost half the kiting toolkit…
A moment of silence from a burning crusade hunter to all you hunters out there. A moment for: tranq shot, wyvern sting, viper sting, half of post haste being nerfed, snake trap, concussive shot nerf, scare beast, serpent sting, kill shot, fewer gcds, double deterrence, pets using damage while los, a smooth rotation.
Hunters skill came from kiting and trapping ability. Hunters skill wasnt about gcds and a large cast squence. This is all pvp im speaking about.
I mean when casters are tankier than a hunter and melee is more mobile where is the hunters place in the meta. Dhs mobility entered the scene in legion, ww monks entered in mop…rets even get fast steeds now…all while hunters became lesser and lesser mobile.
I remember using kiting skill to kite 2 melee in a bg that werent as experienced. Now try that. 0 rated bg heroes will stick to ur face like nobodys business. Dh fury war ww, rogue, pally, they all will catch u now if they arent afk. I agree when legion hit the hunter designers showed 0 back bone, they didnt stand up for hunters they rolled over in the character design meetings as the melee and caster designers gave them nothing and took from them everything…
Hunter isnt a hunter anymore its become the prey.
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i’ve been finding SV really fun and actually deterring me away from Bm a little.
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I’ve been having a blast with SV, but aside from that BM is in a dreadfully boring state and MM is borderline broken. The homogenization of pet abilities has robbed all specs of vital flavor and customization.
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