The Tauren should be the sleeping giant, not idiotic hippies is my argument.
The Tauren currently have only been hurt non-stop, by both alliance and horde, and baine refuses to do anything to truly change that unless someone else is their he can ride with.
That’s why i veiw him as a weak leader, i dont need someone hatefilled like magatha is, just someone who actually can be proactive and not punish people for being proactive. That;s where my issue with Baine lies, I don’t need the Tauren to butcher entire alliance cities, but simply try to make sure the alliance wont threaten them again, as they wound up doing it twice in the past, once by idiocy, once by active disregard for tauren life. Baine not oing anything but exiling his people then telling jaina of an active attack his people were participating in (Something he was so obviously going to do Garrosh made it a core part of his plan) makes it seem like Baine doesn’t get the fact thousands of people’s well being are controlled by his actions.
I’m not a sylvanas fan (I’m probably her biggest critic forsaken side) but just because i dislike sylvie doesn’t mean i like baine. He is in the wrong role, as most of his decisions have not been based on “Is this good for the tauren?” but rather “Is this good for Anduin or Jaina?”. The tauren being the most peaceful horde race is fine, but they should be the Sleeping Giant, hard to rouse into anger, but when it is awakened it is a force to be reckoned with, not literal Hippies who hate voilence so much they banish people trying to defend their homes.
Treng has evidence that military actions did take place.
I have an entire book that says in the timeframe that book is set the factions are not currently at war.
No.
I have the in-fiction words of every single character in the book.
Horde.
Alliance.
Kirin Tor.
In Tides of War, they were not currently at war. Unless you believe that every single leader of the Horde, the leaders of the Alliance and the leaders of the Kirin Tor are all just too dumb to realize they are currently at war.
It might not make any sense, but that is what absolutely everything in Tides of War tells you. And that not-at-war status is what makes Baine kick the tauren disobeying his orders out of Thunder Bluff.
So you can have Baine expelling tauren vigilantes or you can have the factions in open war.
You can’t have both, because they are not compatible.
He’s ONLY ever made two choices that have benefited Anduin and Jaina; and tbh, despite his letters and friendship with Anduin he hasn’t actually done anything that has benefited the Blond Brat specifically. Both of his major decisions that people find contention with both benefited Jaina.
The first being his letter warning her to get her civilians out (as payback for her assistance in reclaiming TB). However, he sent this under the belief that the Horde was going to continue to push its advantage immediately after Northwatch and just steamroll Theramore. But, Garrosh’s plan circumvented this, and outside of saving the lives of some civilians it rendered Baine’s letter largely impotent. Those Horde deaths at Theramore were on Garrosh NOT Baine.
His second decision that benefited Jaina (and considering Sylvie, will probably still hurt her), actually had little to do with Jaina. Baine was pissed that Sylvanas had sunk so low that even the values of her own people ceased to matter to her; and if that’s the case, its a VERY bad sign of how she perceives the values of the other races. His freeing of Derek ultimately amounted to him revolting against her denial of his “Free Will” (a supposed cornerstone of the Forsaken culture).
Baine really isn’t that bad of a leader, the reason he gets hate is primarily due to the two above decisions, his positive relationship with Anduin, and the fact that he’s not dumb enough to start a dual he cannot win (because his opponents will cheat, and well enough to not get caught) that will only result in further hardship and punishment on his people. Y’know … like what happened to Cairne? Where he died in a dual that ultimately only led to his people getting ravaged by Magatha and Garrosh?
Do the Alliance being trampled in Ashenvale think it’s right, do you think?
I can tell you don’t have a great grasp of operational logic, because while this sentence true, you don’t see that proving this is the same as proving that they were at war.
See, your ‘We’ shows that you and I share a definition of war. That’s the one we’ve been discussing this whole topic under. If the only reason the characters don’t think they are at war is that they have an alien definition, then by the terms of that statement;
a) They are at war by our definition (Remember, if that’s the only reason then Treng’s word-of-god evidence for war is still uncontested)
b) They believe they aren’t at war, but this has no bearing on the truth of the matter from our native perspective
So yes, it’s the ‘best I can do’, because it’s a total refute of your position.
Baine exiled his people to stop the not!war you say is the perspective of these characters, but it was a cowardly and pointless action by the standards of a sane perspective.
You are free to refute the Ashenvale conflict at any time. You just need evidence beyond the provably false statements of characters. Treng’s clapping may be dramatic, but it’s right; They aren’t word of god. His evidence is.
I don’t care what the characters define as being “at war”, fact is the Horde and Alliance were actively fighting in the Barrens and Baine betrayed his people by exiling those who merely advocated retaliating against the active siege on their lands that was only broken by those others in the Horde that were willing to put their lives on the line for a cause he abandoned.
If they have a different definition of war, the motive of “avoiding war” stands true, regardless of how we choose to define war.
Or you can just accept that Tides of War exists in its own little bubble. And accepting that acknowledge that in the ToW bubble his actions makes sense and judge them accordingly.
Right, but given this thread exists based on analysis and judgement from our frame of reference, not theirs, this is irrelevant. The thread isn’t ‘Did Baine think he was right?’, it’s a condemnation of his consistent inaction that is destructive to his people, and provably so under a rational analysis. We don’t have to take their perspective, because doing so would be to say things like ‘there is no war’ when Ashenvale is in the middle of a war.
If your position is only true in a deliberately narrowed ‘little bubble’ frame of reference, and only when judged using an alien definition of a commonly used and understood word, your position is… not very valid.
Still waiting for any evidence of what they said being right, and not just evidence that they said it. Any time you have that, that would be great.
When your position is “No one in Azeroth understands what war is including everyone with the authority to make an official declaration of war” you don’t get to ridicule mine.
I’m done with this conversation by the way.
Take it as some kind of victory if you’re inclined.
I sorta skipped towards the end of the thread. Are we still talking about ToW?
Cause the easiest thing to do is just pretend like the book never happened. That way we don’t get “Kick em out of Thunder Bluff” Baine and a timeline that makes zero sense in regards to the in-game events.
Baine entered the narrative as a victim who needed to be rescued. The story role he finds himself in once again. This is not a coincidence. He is not Warchief material. The Tauren need a proper leader.
You are either awful at mockery or lying to save face. I don’t think it matters which.
I’m on board. There’s so much of the faction war that sits on the possibilities of the story like a lead elephant. I’d sooner throw it out than make it work by divorcing it from the continuity.
Don’t you know bro? If you aren’t a genocidal Hulk Smash type then you can’t be Horde material! But we also don’t want our leaders to be villains~!!! Wahhhh
Forreal. Kael’thas deserved it. Lady Liadrin sucks. Why does nobody ever talk about Lady Liadrin by the way? Probably the third worst character in the Horde after Sylvanas and Nathanos.
![:clap:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/clap.png?v=6" ":clap:")
DOESN’T