Can ban them from the Horde.
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If they didn’t following Garrosh, there is precious little compelling evidence they would in the future.
Well the taurens were celebrating for the destruction of Theramoore and in the new questline for leatherworking, they are tired from Baine and his passive personality for not avenging Taraujo.
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Lol, yup, that one line about Taraujo totally implies they are sick of Baine.
I’m also partial to the part where that Tauren states they’re going to ask the Earth Mother to help them build a weapon. Y’mean the “Earth Mother” that has a big ol Sword stabbed inside her? That’s hemorrhaging like crazy and we’re harvesting her blood? An issue that BAINE wanted to prioritize, but Sylvanas became angered when he pushed too much; preferring to use this new wonderful “Earth Mother Blood” as a weapon for war?
Seems this Tauren’s prioritize are a bit skewed. ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
They care for the planet but don’t give a damm about the others habitants is actually in character for most of the civilizations of Azeroth, the elves are like that and the taurens were at war with the centaur no long ago but now they seem to be at some kind of peace as Magni went to talk with them but clearly they aren’t doing some annual meeting for hugs.
Also we are talking with an average joe tauren and his friend a female tauren that escaped from Taraujo, the alliance version has a female nelf hating the humans for extort some nelves, they care for the planet but they don’t speak with Magni regularly to know how bad it’s the current state of the planet.
Now go to pest somewhere else green gnome
Ooh, how Edgy. And why should I care about average Joe Tauren? Taraujo was avenged. The perpetrator of that tragedy (and nearly ALL of his men) were slaughtered by the Horde. Justice has been served, and the borders of Tauren territory were reinforced to prevent any such tragedies from occurring.
Also, I tend to notice a distinct lack of “didn’t Magatha slaughter MORE Tauren innocents during her rebellion than that died at Taraujo, and the Alliance helped us reclaim TB and stop that”? She was actively ordering her Grimtotem to assault villages all over Mulgore and kill anyone in them.
They also just don’t seem to know that the Horde started this war by burning THOUSANDS of civilians alive? Seriously, this guy comes off as not being able to see further than his own horns … so the idea that he’s any sort of good judge of the Tauren’s current feelings on Baine is just ridiculous.
Listen pal, maybe you didn’t played WC3 but people in Azeroth is very racist, the blood elves were genocied and nobody in the alliance cared about then and when Lordaeron was ravaged by the scourge nobody cared either and guess what the kirin tor did with Jaina pleas of help? They chicked out, if you want justice then go and scream to Anduin to do something except to plan a massive group hug and to the spineless leader of the alliance, because I can assure you if Genn went to burn down every forsaken like he wanted in Legion, pretty sure nobody would had blinked an eye or lose the sleep because of that
You should care what the average thinks because that is where the true dinamic lies, there were a lots of blood elves that wanted to go back to the alliance or didn’t wanted another tragedy like they suffered some years ago and started to learn from the void and we have nelves angry with the alliance and are doing justice by their own hand.
Really dude it’s not something hard to undestand but you are comparing the current views with a sword and sorcery world that pretty much is a mess to live.
Also Maghata didn’t kill anything else except soldiers loyal to Baine, that is why her occupation endured for months before Jaina gave gold to Baine to retake his city. Besides the dude clearly cares more about the other faction than his own or else he would be doing meetings like he did with Garrosh or outright killer her with some back up like Rexxar
its posts like this that make me question why I bother with this forum at all.
“Cairne’s body was not even cold before Magatha ordered her tribe to attack Thunder Bluff and other tauren towns, and kill everyone in them”. She wasn’t being indiscriminate about who she was killing. And no, Baine clearly doesn’t care more about the Alliance than the Horde. He’s only acted in JAINA’S interest twice, and he’s NEVER acted on behest of Anduin (regardless of his friendship). If he did care more about the Alliance, he could have heeded the call to LEAVE the Horde outright in “As Our Father’s Before Us”. Even Runetotem agreed that he was not bound by Cairne’s oath to Thrall.
His warning to Jaina was nothing more than a Get-Out courtesy call; which was the least he could do after Theramore helped resecure ThunderBluff during the Grimtotem Rebellion by providing his loyalists asylum and funding their campaign. It amounted to nothing tangible to the battle, Baine didn’t try to stop the attack, and he even led from the Front lines. His release of Derek was a sign of protest against Sylvanas CLEARLY abandoning her own people’s values; which bodes very poorly for how she sees the values of other Horde races (nothing more). The Alliance itself had little to do with it.
Also, I don’t give a crap about what a single blind, short-sighted layman thinks about Baine (he also doesn’t mention Baine at all btw). His opinion should be noted, if it has merit it should be considered (it doesn’t), and if not … it should be disregarded. If decisions were made solely off the opinions of people like that, every race in Azeroth would be walking off cliffs constantly. His need for petty, personal revenge (it is not a call for justice by any stretch), would sentence his ENTIRE race into direct conflict was a force that the entire Horde can’t even beat right now.
So … Baine doesn’t care more about the Alliance than the Horde, but the Alliance cares more about the tauren than the Horde does? Is that what you’re saying?
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Because you play the alliance that makes you already a masochist
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It is an unfortunate reality that the Alliance has every bit as mixed a relationship with the Tauren, than the Tauren have with the Horde. “It’s Complicated” is an understatement.
The race had no prior conflict with the Alliance before their joining with the Horde, and since then the Alliance has both HURT and HELPED them (just like the Horde has). Hell, people forget that part of the reason Cairne agreed to challenge Garrosh to “to-the-death” Mak’gora was because he was furious that Garrosh’s actions were standing in the way to peace (PEACE was HIS GOAL, not just Baine’s).
Beyond this, large factions of Tauren in “As Our Father’s Before Us” wanted to LEAVE the Horde ENTIRELY due to Hardships they felt they were being subjugated to under Garrosh (and one could easily argue that Taraujo could be added to that list later on; as it was HIS attacking the NEs that helped cause it). Not only that, even Hamul stated that Baine was not bound by Cairne’s oath to Thrall.
Its honestly amazing to me that fans of the Horde, who claim they love it because of its diversity (and hate the Alliance because of its Hegemony), always try to homogenize the entire faction into a single monolith whenever the subject of “relations with the Alliance” shows up. Diversity can ONLY be Skin-Deep. When it comes to cultures, ideals, and opinions … it needs to be one ugly, stagnant mass…
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That line comes from Baine and everyone knows how blizzard loves to use unreliable narrator so they can retcon anything with impunity. I respect Baine with warning Jaina about Theramoore, there was a debt he wanted to repay but in bts Golden wrote him into a corner with him informing Anduin about the horde expedition to Stormheim which is basically another minor cause for the current war that is being forgotten because Sylvanas is evil and without mention the dude wanted to talk about negociating about peace with the body of rastakhan still being warn, at the very least if he were just giving a shoulder to cry to Talanji and telling piss off to lad dog Nathanos then he would be liked and respected but Blizzard doesn’t know how to make him sympathic without screwing the horde at the same time.
Good thing you aren’t a leader because you don’t give a damm about the what the people think(which ironically puts you in the same place as Sylvanas currently). Another funny thing, you are furious because Sylvanas abandoned the creed of the forsaken of free will and yet you said the opinion of their societies and members should be ignored because they will be walking to cliffs all the time, so the people like nelves should just sing kumbaya with the forsakens while wearing flowers and the taurens should be best friends with humans despite of some recent conflicts without mention the humans are very unreliable allies
Dude with all respect I know the kind of guy you are, the one that has 1 goal and mindset and you will argue not matter what just to get your little theories, headcanon and characters you like at the top without accepting new views, sorry but not gonna bother with continuing with that kind of conversation
Uhh … Baine DIDN’T inform Anduin about the Horde expedition in Stormheim?
SI:7 informed Anduin, Genn, and Rogers about suspicious Horde troop movements in that region (and SI:7 was being controlled by Datheroc at that point who wanted to start up the conflict between the two factions when they could least afford it). Baine had nothing to do with that conflict. In fact, he was originally supposed to be pretty integral to the HighMountain Horde story, but his story was cut (and it rendered him almost entirely irrelevant in Legion).
As for “ignoring that Tauren” … yeah, I would largely ignore his input. His ENTIRE motives are based around small, personal, quest for revenge (over an event that had already had Justice served). Everyone responsible for that tragedy IS DEAD at Horde hands! What more does he want? A constant, ever escalating cycle of violence between the Tauren and Alliance built around disproportionate responses? Then THAT Tauren does not really give a CRAP about Tauren lives if that’s the case.
Sylvanas has abandoned the literal core tenant of HER ENTIRE RACE; Baine made a measured, reasonable decision based on the information he had. He was aware Hawthorne tried to spare civilians; he was aware that YES Taurajo was a valid military target due to training Horde troops; he was aware that large factions of Tauren had previously wanted to leave the Horde due to hardships like Taurajo; and he took the death’s of Hawthorne and his men as proportionate reciprocation to that tragedy.
EDIT: And yeah, I’m not secretive about my dislike for the Faction Conflict; finding it has done more damage to the Horde story than the Alliance ever could. However, you didn’t really make great arguments to dissuade me on my opinion that outside of Baine walking into a trap with the Darek issue; he’s apparently some horrific Alliance hugger who cares more about them than his own people (or that he in any way dealt with Taraujo in some unreasonable way).
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Yes, please. Yaungol would have been a more interesting allied race than “same as normal Tauren, but with moose antlers” Tauren.
Frankly, I agree with something Ariel said on another thread, although I wouldn’t put it quite as aggressively as she did. It’s completely bogus that they had to contrive a situation where somehow none of the Horde leaders were willing or able to come to the tauren’s aid during the Grimtotem rebellion, and somehow only Jaina was able to save Baine. I agree with Ariel that the purpose of that storyline was to make Jaina look good.
Even then, the consequence I would have liked to see was Baine taking Jaina’s invasion of the Barrens as a stab in the back, becoming angry at her, and blaming the deaths of his people on her enabling the Alliance to attack. But we can’t have that.
The clashes with the dwarves over their digging may have come chronologically after the tauren joining the Horde, but they were going to happen sooner or later. They have nothing to do with Horde-vs-Alliance politics.
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Sure. But ToW states that Hawthorne acted on false information that there was a specific threat from Taurajo.
The game says he allowed civilians to escape. The book suggests that they all did escape and the fighters were the only ones who died.
It is very clearly a typo.
He should have known the instant he heard the word “tauren” that they would not come alone.
Indicates they had never been attacked by a tauren army.
It wasn’t like them.
Further indicates an attack from the tauren would be out of character.
He should have known the real threat would come from the north. From Orgrimmar.
Also indicates that they would not expect the tauren to be a threat.
The tauren army pressed forward in an attack before, not after the late general Hawthorne had ensured that the civilians of Camp Taurajo would be allowed to leave unharmed.
The only line that indicates the tauren army attacked them before. A single sentence that is poorly constructed. A sentence that makes no sense unless a word or two is missing. A sentence that is completely out of place with the lines surrounding it and everything else in the book if the intended meaning was that a tauren army attacked them previously.
“It isn’t like them. He should have known the tauren couldn’t be alone. He should have known the threat was from Orgrimmar. … but yeah the tauren army totally attacked them before.”
Nonsense.
If an army of tauren attacked before it would be like them and he should have believed the tauren could be a threat and wouldn’t be surprised if the threat wasn’t from Orgrimmar.
Skirmishes with tauren, not full armies.
The rageroar, at least in Tides of War are suggested to be acting independently of the rest of the Horde.
This comment chain originally stemmed from you saying that the folks at Northwatch wouldn’t distinguish between the vigilantes and official forces.
It seems they can.
He challenged Garrosh and was willing to kill him in a duel, but Garrosh never surrendered.
When Baine fought Magatha, she lost and begged for mercy before Baine could deliver the finishing blow.
The situations are not the same.
Point me to a scene where Cairne kills an opponent begging for mercy.
I repeat, point me to the source that says aid was requested of the tauren and denied. You still haven’t shown that Baine denied Garrosh troops.
We know that Baine refused to take revenge for Taurajo.
We know that Baine expelled the tauren who disobeyed him from Thunder Bluff.
According to the quest you linked we know that some of the people who sought revenge against the Alliance did so without the authority of the Horde.
We don’t know that Baine refused any order to assist in the fighting.
You still haven’t shown he did disobey Garrosh.
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Baine wrote Anduin to explain what happened at the Broken Shore.
That only benefits the Horde.
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Sure. But ToW states that Hawthorne acted on false information that there was a specific threat from Taurajo.
Taurajo was the closest Horde town to the Alliance at Theramore, it follows that if the Horde is going to attack they’d mobilize there. Anyway, again, nothing in the book overrides that other information.
The game says he allowed civilians to escape. The book suggests that they all did escape and the fighters were the only ones who died.
Except that’s not what it says. It says that Hawthorne ensured the civilians would be allowed to flee unharmed - Not that they did or were.
It is very clearly a typo.
Maybe, but we have to take it as it’s written. And as it’s written, the only implication is that the Tauren would be unlikely to attack alone - Which is completely consistent with the game, where they’re backed up by the rest of the Horde.
Skirmishes with tauren, not full armies.
There was major military force present on both sides throughout the Barrens. A skirmish can mean practically anything in terms of size.
The rageroar, at least in Tides of War are suggested to be acting independently of the rest of the Horde.
The Horde has many independent units, they flew the Horde banner and had more than just Orcs in their ranks.
It seems they can.
They clearly can’t given they’re misattributing a Horde force to not be Horde.
He challenged Garrosh and was willing to kill him in a duel, but Garrosh never surrendered.
Garrosh tried to get Cairne to back down by making it a fight to the death, but instead Cairne was enthused at being freed to kill Garrosh as he had wanted to. And this is just under the suspicion that Garrosh ordered Sentinels and a Druid meeting killed in Ashenvale, Magatha slaughtered the Tauren in Mulgore, including attempting to assassinate his son. Given he wanted to kill Garrosh both to avenge what he’d already done and to prevent his wrongdoing in the future, it makes no sense that he would allow Magatha to live simply because she asked for mercy.
I repeat, point me to the source that says aid was requested of the tauren and denied. You still haven’t shown that Baine denied Garrosh troops.
Again, what I’m saying is that Baine didn’t have the authority to tell the Tauren there not to fight when Bloodhilt was already leading them in defense of their lands. In particular Bloodhilt led the Tauren at Vendetta Point, and these are the same Tauren Baine says he exiled from Thunder Bluff because they struck back, or even just because they believed his decision was wrong. Not only does this mean he punished people merely for following their superiors, but it also means that anyone who did follow him did not participate in the counterattacks, meaning Bloodhilt’s forces could not marshal them or have them participate.
And given Garrosh endorsed the fighting by sending Bloodhilt to drive the Alliance back, Baine was wrong for trying to countermand his imperative and deprive his efforts of Tauren troops.
You still haven’t shown he did disobey Garrosh.
Garrosh wanted to push the Alliance back and appointed a general with his blessing to do so. Baine did not want to push the Alliance back and told his people not to join any such endeavors. In what way is that not disobeying Garrosh? They had opposing desires and Baine even punished people that followed Garrosh’s will.
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Yes because Shaw can’t tell anyone what really happens and he wrote more information about the horde moves. He could had been an awesome character if blizzard didn’t screw him like Saurfang