Because this is a discussion about Alterac Valley in Classic.
Why are you guys here fighting for 1.5 AV so hard? You’re not trolling, are you? Of course not. You’re trying to get what you want. I’m trying to get what I want. It’s pretty easy to see why I’m here. I want to play what I played back in 2006.
The only difference is I don’t call you guys trolls for disagreeing with me. Unsure why you’re throwing around the word so liberally save it for the folks asking for transmog in Classic. Not someone advocating for a Vanilla version of Alteract Valley in Classic.
What argument have you made beyond the “Ion said” garbage? What aspects of your preferred and only experienced version of AV would be absent in the early versions? Why are YOU advocating for 1.12 specifically?
This guy totally gets it. If they want to make Classic a museum piece that is truly unique. And contains all the elements that made Vanilla special then AV 1.5 needs to be a part of Classic.
So people seem to think that with the 1.12 version we are unable to experience very long AV matches.
When I played I still recall playing the same instance of Alterac Valley for an entire day. They were really long when I played. We still summoned the big Ice Boss too several times and that was a really fun way to help push past a turtle. Players back then were pretty bad, I know I was. So no one was really trying to zerg down and rush the boss. Did that happen? Sometimes if the Horde allowed it. But I don’t remember it being a constant thing.
I recall just sitting with 40 alliance near the Stormpike Bridge or whatever it was shooting horde.
I’m advocating for 1.12 specifically because I’m saying those “experiences” that people are afraid of losing weren’t lost when I played in 1.12. I still experienced the epic battles. I still experienced the turtles.
Many people seem to be fear mongering that we’re going to lose the epicness of AV. It was still very epic when I played on the 1.12 version. Still had those big fights in the middle of the map. Still backcapped towers. Still yelled at the lower levels for grinding mobs or fishing and not fighting. Still called out the AFK people in the cave. I still had that epic AV experience many seem to think that 1.12 lost.
People keep saying 1.12 is going to be a zerg fest. I’m here arguing for 1.12 because I’m saying when I played it wasn’t.
Player mentality has certainly changed, so we may not experience the same epicness. But that can be said with Molten Core too. Mentality has changed. It won’t be the same.
To put it very simply. You guys seem to be saying AV won’t be epic with 1.12. I’m saying it will be epic with 1.12 AV.
5 months after 1.5 launched, patch 1.8 narrows the map, nerfs NPCs and reduces the number of players necessary to start AV down to 20. Also, Korrak is relocated.
10 months after 1.5 launched, in patch 1.10, Korrak is gone and all of the “gross” item drops are removed. (As an aside, to me that one word made the announcement so much worse.)
13 months after 1.5 launched, most of the NPC guards and gone and the remaining creatures are nerfed in patch 1.11.
AV is then left untouched until the release of TBC, approximately 7 months, making it the single longest version in Vanilla.
What reasons could Blizzard have had for making so many changes and making them so often? I don’t have the answer, but I suspect that they looked at the number of players using AV and the number of hours played and decided the then current figures weren’t high enough for their liking. I’ve said it in previous posts: When art collides with commerce, art rarely wins.
Also, I must confess that looking at the patch notes has weakened my position rather than strengthening it. I look at the changes made and think that 1.5 couldn’t have been that good if Blizzard felt the need to make that many changes. However, emotionally I read the impact that a 6 week event had on players and think that it must have been incredible to still be pushing people almost 14 years later. The only WoW moment I’ve had like that was the first time I logged in and the Forsaken cinematic played. I can’t lobby for something I’ve never had before, but I will put down my “Stop your whining” banner because I know I’d give a lot to be able to relive my moment.
I don’t think I’ve ever told someone to shut up. They present their viewpoint and I present mine.
Since I didn’t play during 1.5. Can anyone please go share with me some of the older forum posts from that time period where the World of Warcraft forums were outraged with the changes? There was a really long thread, like 96 pages, about a free for all PVP server or something. Then stuff about the honor system. I did see one thread with one reply about AV being “broken”. Couldn’t access the thread though.
I checked once on the wayback machine and found a screenshot from May 2006 and people weren’t really complaining about AV being bad and Blizzard ruining it.
So can you guys provide some proof of people complaining back then? Not saying it didn’t happen. But I’d love to read those comments.
LOL, ok. Maybe not literally saying shut up. But you live on this forum for the expressed purpose of discouraging people to advocate for any other version than 1.12.
And you keep going on and on about why these changes were made and player mentality back in 2006, which continues to be completely and utterly irrelevant. Mistakes are made. That’s just a fact. Were these changes mistakes? Some will say yes, some will say no.
The only thing that matters is what’s best for Classic. I’m convinced a prior version (1.7 specifically) would be the most successful choice. I don’t care about the terms ‘best’ or ‘complete’. What I think is far more important is giving a unique experience. One that few experienced, and one that no one can experience right now.
So let’s deal with some facts. The 1.12 map offers nothing that the Current map already offers. At the same time, it’s much easier to zerg. So how is that good for Classic? Players try to zerg every AV right now, and they’ve been doing this for 10+ years. So you’re telling me when Classic launches players will magically stop zerging when the map is even easier to do it?
At least with the TBC changes the warmasters/generals were linked to the Boss and the stacking buff was added, so there was SOME reason to take down the towers. In 1.12 there is none. Why is that? There could be a lot of reasons. Maybe Vann/Drek were balanced by the fact they were 30% more powerful and had far more hp before the 1.8 and 1.11 nerfs. And before most of the guards were removed which made zerging even easier. Maybe those prior nerfs were made with a further anticipation of those 2.03 and 2.04 changes that happened not long after. 1.12 just happens to be the iteration that was in place when Vanilla ended. See, that’s the problem with saying 1.12 is the ‘completed’ version. Because it wasn’t.
All that said, I acknowledge the dream is dead. Have I been making tons of posts about AV since the pvp content update blue post? Clearly the devs are going with an ultimate goal of 1.12. I think that’s the wrong decision. But it’s their decision to make. But I feel no need to stomp on others’ dreams like you do. What purpose does that serve?
I wasn’t going to reply for a while, heck maybe not even today, but this is an honest good post.
A lot of people I’ve argued with here about me being pro-1.5AV either forget, or use it as a weapon, that I’ve changed my stance. It’s called being honest and not letting simple emotional negative response to being argued with get in the way.
I liked this post, even though you still held the argument based on time which I do understand that AV variants prior to 1.11 were not around nearly as long thusly more people likely witnessed 1.11 AV and it is more related due to that, because you showed that you have an open mind here and an honest heart. And that I respect.
As for me and 1.5 AV? I’ve honestly had to look into it again. I played during that time and did go through it but I have so little memory of it likely because I didn’t BG much at all back then. I was just a WPVP hero back then that did nothing but mess around and get Winterspring mount. But what little memory I do have before the changes they made to it was good, I remember killing Korrak, getting wrecked by tough NPCs in random places and so forth. It was a lot of fun, stuff I’ve not seen in well over a decade.
When I remember those memories, it felt more like an actual battleground. When I remember the great 1.12 rush times and pre-BC honor farming, it was almost always “Rush to end, cap 2 towers, kill drek, done” Which made it more of an instanced PVE race than anything.
I’d also like to note about the whole “nerfing npcs” in later patches. Might sound great but during those patches our gear was no where near as good as 1.12 gear. When we get rolling through 1.12 gear, those OP npcs wont be as OP.
True. I would call that the natural progression of gear. Thus no reason to artificially speed up the process by nerfing the npcs. But that’s what they did, and the Blue post indicates the devs thought that was a good idea. So it is what it is.
By the way, I knew the above troll would take what I said out of context since that’s what he does. Obviously I’m saying what’s best for Classic, not the best version of AV.
You’re sure taking this grudge against me a little far. We can talk it out, I’ve offered you this chance before but I doubt you’re adult enough to do so.
Damnit, you still do not get that it wasn’t just the time factor, but rather the rich and varied content. It became quicker due to that content being removed.
So because things were removed before you started playing, you feel compelled to argue against reverting to when they existed, despite the fact that it does not take away any of your favored aspects of the bg.
You have no frame of reference to judge if 1.12 was as “epic” as 1.5-1.7.
I interpreted his lines as, “best for Classic” being what will be best suited for Classic overall and “I don’t care about the terms best or complete” are targeting their previous uses as what is the “best” version of AV overall.
Goes back to the whole warts and all statements. What will fit for Classic the most is the best suited choice for it even if it may not play as well as the complete version of it founder later in the game.
I’ll admit there is flawed wording using the word “best” then stating not caring for the term, his main goal was not caring for the recent use of the term. What it meant rather than the term itself.
I think that’s the philosophy that should be applied to all aspects of Classic: which iteration fits the mold for Classic. So in comparing different versions during the Vanilla timeline I look for benefits of one iteration over another.
When it comes to AV…I ask what does 1.12 offer? It’s objectively the easiest time in the battleground’s history to zerg. The map offers nothing that the Current map doesn’t already offer. Just the time limit is removed (which won’t be met anyway). Whereas say 1.7 is much harder to zerg (15-30% buffed npcs), even more hp on top of that, and MANY more guards. Plus even if a zerg fails and a battle of attrition is created guess what: you have landmines, goblin shredders, two extra parts of the map, Korrak, those cool rpg lootable items from players. All things that players can’t experience now, and few ever got to experience.
Anyway, I accept why players might prefer 1.12 AV over an earlier version. But I can’t accept any scenario or argument claiming 1.12 is best for Classic. Because it’s not. And there’s going to be a lot of confusion when players who’ve been told that Vanilla AV lasted hours (if not days) see AVs lasting 3-4 minutes. There’s going to be a big disconnect there.
But that said, it’s the choice the devs have made. I think it’s the wrong choice. Personally I won’t partake in AV. But to those who do…enjoy the zerg.
I’ve myself repeatedly pointed out that during the early versions, people were still leveling, people were not geared, people did not know the ins and outs of the bg, and there were two DRASTICALLY simplistic BGs with a slew of level brackets competing with it.
Those that pull out the calendar and point to how long each version existed conveniently ignore all of the reasons it was less “popular” than the other 2 BGs. Also that AV was arguably being buffed all the way to and including 1.7.
Unnerfed guards please, i’m pretty sure you thought it was a good idea to have them nerfed because you weren’t really interested in av but more interested in honor/rep farming.
Seeing how you can already do that in live rush games that don’t take that long unless someone forces the other team to turtle.
In the context of the honor system implementation… 1.12 makes ‘sense’- the BG can’t be a days long affair to make it compete with the likes of farming WSG/AB all day for high PvP ranks. End of the day it became a BG for people that were there for the rewards themselves, just like live (and thus the ‘rush’ mentality coupled with the changes that make that possible to speed up the BG done by the devs).
It’s also likely the data they have and the most expedient (read, cheapest) thing for them to implement (although I’d like to hear Bliz say explicitly, ‘sorry, we don’t have the 1.5 data to implement, even if we wanted to… and we aren’t going to take the time to recreate it somehow’).
That being said, I don’t like the Vanilla honor system (unpopular opinion, but it was the worst implementation of a pseudo-ladder I’ve ever seen in a game) and I’m not afraid to make changes (again, unpopular opinion) when they are made in accordance with the the ‘spirit’ of Classic.
Putting aside the #nochanges Frankenpatch holy war for a second, the earlier versions of AV were definitely unique in that they gave WoW that MMO-RPG ‘feel’ (IMO anyway), and I feel like that is the stuff that should be preserved in the Classic project. It felt like a WoW cinematic come to life in the game, but one in which you could still participate in, even if you might not have the starring role (which is OK!), like we do these days as the killer of gods and titans and saviors of Azeroth x 5. But that vision is probably not even just 1 patch… however something like 1.7 would be pretty close.
Doing that (long-form AV instead of 1.12) would make it unpopular with the Rank14 grinders… and maybe that’s OK? They would be pre-made stomping WSG and AB anyway and queue dodging each-other.
Anyway, it seems as though 1.12 is what we are getting regardless at this point. Too bad, a missed opportunity IMO.
![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
![:beer:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/beer.png?v=6" ":beer:")