You can keep using the term ‘best’ all you want. Your personal opinion is just that. And it’s one that’s not shared by the majority of posters, obviously. But sadly it is by the devs. 1.12 AV is authentic Vanilla, so stick with that argument, because you’re not going to win any discussion saying it’s the best.
By the way, you’re aware that half the original WoW team was fired a ways into Vanilla, right? Listen to Mark Kern tell the tale of why he ended up quitting. There’s a reason why there was a radical shift in the vision and philosophy of the game. Because the original devs were gone.
I have posted before a quote from John Staats one of the original level designers on WoW who said AV wasn’t very popular.
So I’m not making stuff up, I’m just saying what someone from the original WoW team said.
Again YOU may not have thought this was an improvement. But the original team certainly thought 1.12 was the best version. If not they wouldnt have made changes to AV.
Normally companies don’t change their products, authors don’t change their manuscript, game designers don’t change their game unless THEY think it’s an improvement.
Do you really think the WoW team from 2006 went and said “wow guys players love AV, lets change it so they hate it!”
Again I’m not saying 1.12 is good. I’m not defending it. I’m defending the final stage, the most completed version of Vanilla.
You not liking it is subjective. Me liking or not liking it is subjective, you know what isn’t subjective? It’s existence. That’s absolutely clear.
WoW Classic isn’t meant to go back and fix mistakes. That isn’t the goal of this game. You’re claiming 1.12 AV is a mistake just because you don’t like it.
I’ve posted before to Brokenwind that I’d love to play 1.5 AV it sounds fun. But it wouldn’t exist more than one phase or shouldn’t if they’re trying to be accurate.
Just doesn’t seem wise to give players something for one phase and then the next phase the forums erupt with people upset.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they tweaked AV a little to give in to demands. As sirre pointed out this has a very low “liked” count.
Maybe you should clarify within or before that sentence then? Because your statement just says “The decision was made” without any prior information appears to be speaking of the decision they are making now for Classic and not Retail Vanilla.
And in the odd chance that you somehow mean now Classic then you are lying. He does not work for them anymore and as you stated before we should trust them and what they say. So based off of your own previous argument and what they’ve said in this thread, that does not hold.
Then why do we have Classic coming out?
No seriously why? Because this is an anti-Classic argument. Based on this argument Current is entirely better because it does not get worse it only gets better!
Oh?
Bolded to point out. That is subjective. To you 1.12 was the best. Also best =/= most completed. To say that it is at its best because of how much more has been added onto it is to say that Current is by far leagues better than Vanilla.
I never argued that.
Putting words in my mouth? Seriously?
I never claimed 1.12 AV was a mistake, the only real claims I’ve made is that 1.5 AV overall is a better representation of the Vanilla experience of Alteric Valley due to various reasons.
Maybe both you and Mogar shouldn’t bicker about what’s insulting to the original dev team without asking them. One of the more ridiculous things about society today is the massive number of people that are claiming insult and being offended for people other than themselves.
Umm excuse me?
I am sorry but I am not Brokenwind or any of the others you might be referring to here. I didn’t like their arguments because of the emotional “IM NOT GONNA BOTHER WITH CLASSIC IF IT NOT HERE” They have, for what I’ve read, bad arguments. I argued with them a lot prior to me changing my mind and my focus was on the faults.
I am also not the person who earlier relied on a completely disingenuous debate tactic to completely blow off every single loss they had in their points, nor am I the person who ended up claiming that the other was saying that Blizzard is lying while admitting that my point would have to completely rely on them lying, and I am not the person that jumped into this thread earlier attacking with baseless Ad Hominem and assumptions based off loose reading skills attacking the other person out of sheer. . . emotion.
Cherry Picking again?
Why should I answer if you will just drop your point then pick up a new one with your Kettle Logic?
But fine I’ll answer this one last cherry pick.
Because they, the team at the time, likely saw that there were issues with 1.5 AV. Was it perfect? Of course not! They likely felt there were much needed improvements and there was likely a sum of players that did not like how it was. So with that sum backing them up, be it a majority, loud minority or otherwise, they made changes in hopes of improving the game.
I am not saying that 1.5 AV was perfect, nor am I saying that it is actually better in general. What I am saying is that it is unique and different and the things that it contained can no longer be seen in gaming to this day and that many if not most of such things are what makes it like Classic when compared to 1.12 AV as if it was Current. When I say better I am saying it better represents Vanilla.
But I’ve already mentioned all of the reasons why.
If Classic was so good then why did they change it? Because they thought they could make it better.
But this isn’t about why they changed it. Because if it was then as I stated we should all be playing Current right now because by your argument there is NO reason to go to Classic. And I am sure you’ll ignore that again.
So let me state this clearly. This isn’t about making the game better. This is not about the best game. This is about a museum piece. A piece of gaming art and history! The reason I argue for 1.5 AV is simple. It was something never seen before and never seen since then, it was unique and beautiful even with its faults. An experience most whom were there never forget. And because of that it was a defining moment in Vanilla. One that should not be left behind.
Game designers and developers are artists! They seek to wield their creativity in a form that brings attention!
“Hmm I like what you did there, but I think what you did before that was better without the changes you made” is a way of telling them that they went off in a different path compared to what you were looking for!
I’ve made changes to my writing that my beta readers have often questioned, but the difference is it’s 1 on 1 so I get thorough feedback in which I know the path they are talking about. This is 14 years later, words they likely will NEVER read, and no one can blame them.
They made changes for that time. Saying “Hey I liked what you did before the changes better” is an insult is completely laughable especially when you are saying it for someone else.
What argument are you even making here? That every change that’s happened to WoW made the game better? Can you really say with a straight face that that’s the case?
And not even just in terms of AV, but as a general philosophy. Has every change to every system in the game made it better? Are players happier now than ever? Are they enjoying the game more than they ever have before?
If you read the forums and actually pay attention to what people complain about, and what they ask for, and how they respond to changes you come to one undeniable conclusion: most players don’t know what the Hell they want. And the changes to AV during Vanilla might have been what most players sought. In the short-term perhaps that was a good thing, but in the long run what did it create? Look at the go-go-go mindset that’s been created due to game design that not only supports that instant gratification, efficient convenience above all else philosophy, but actively encourages it.
If you prefer the 1.12 version, fine. If you say it’s authentic Vanilla fine. It is. But this ridiculous argument that it’s somehow the BEST version, or the COMPLETE version is serving no purpose.
I can say with a straight face that the WoW team made changes with the intention of making it better. I doubt they go into their offices everyday and try to actively make the game worse. That was my point. At the time, they felt it was the best choice.
I don’t think players are happier. Loads of choices Blizzard has made could be argued against. However, they were made with good intentions.
I read the forums. Quite a bit actually. I’ve been on these new forums for 55 days and have 6 days of reading time. Most of my day is on the WoW forums.
The go-go-go mindset that’s been created was not solely due to game design. I believe even on this thread I may have mentioned how certain private servers have a mesh of 1.12/1.8 AV and have made some changes to the 1.12 AV. The issue is that the mindset is still there. People will always take the shortcut if offered. Players on the private servers still farm AV in a short amount of time and get upset when there is a turtle.
I’m not arguing it is the best version. I said it wasn’t the best. I stated that it was the “best” at the time.
If you ask an artist or an author if they are satisfied with their work, they’ll most likely say no. No artist is 100% satisfied. There is always something that can be amended to make the piece better.
Here are my arguments…
Mindset has changed. Even with 1.5 AV, people will still rush it down. Not everyone is in AV to relive the glory days. Some are there for rep or honor.
Even if you want to invalidate my other arguments, which are still valid. You don’t stop a book trilogy at the second book just because you don’t like the ending. The first argument is still prevalent on private servers today. People will rush AV no matter what version you give them. So while you may enjoy killing those buffed monsters, the rest of your team may very well just run past them.
There are other mediums where this topic has been discussed at length. Reddit has had a few hundred comment replies on the topics that spring up about AV. Most people seem to just accept the fact.
Yeah I don’t think Ion actively went into his office and decided on those to make the game worse and have people quit.
It’s disingenuous to think that the WoW team tries to actively make their game worse.
Same goes for the 2006 WoW team when they made all the changes in Vanilla. They never made a change to make the game worse. Could it make the game worse? Sure can. But they don’t try to actively ruin their own game.
Where did I say in my previous post that they don’t make the game worse? They do it plenty of times. They’re just not actively trying to do it. It may be a byproduct of their actions, but never the motive.
Please quit putting things into my posts that aren’t there.
![:cocktail:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/cocktail.png?v=6" ":cocktail:")