There is nothing that stops both teams from completely ignoring each other in 1.5. They can run right past each other and go raiding the other team’s side. Sure it’s “harder” in that the NPCs are stronger, but against the entire 40 man team that only means so much.
“But they can chose not to zerg” you’ll probably tell me next. To which I’ll point out, that’s a choice they have in 1.12 too. It’s almost like zerging is a player choice.
But its harder to do is the point. The less people it takes to stop a zerg the better. Now address the other points in that post. Or is that all you have going for you? You can’t troll past the part about zerging?
It takes 10 people, all of 10 to stop a zerg on 1.12. 10 people can effectively hold back the entire team from the other side.
It takes less in 1.5. Your point is meaningless. Your dancing around this thing because you can’t be bothered to put any effort in your troll post. You should be ashamed.
You’re the ones who can’t get past 1.12 is bad because it can be zerged, when 1.5 can be zerged too. Whether its “harder” is irrelevant. If you want to argue 1.5 is just better, make that argument. Stop trying to say 1.5 just can’t be zerged. Player choice exists in either version.
People keep preaching “path of least resistance”. Well, the least resistance in 1.5 is ignoring the other team and plowing through the NPCs as a team. A zerg as it were.
I’m sure you think if you repeat something enough times it’ll make it true, whilst simultaneously presenting zero evidence of your claim.
In any event, I continue to hope the devs reassess their decision and consider giving a more epic version that creates long-lasting and meaningful battles, including features that no longer exist, rather than a near carbon copy of what players can already experience in Current WoW.
You have this fantasy that 40 players in AV tend to work in a coordinated fashion. The ONLY time that is remotely true is when there are no speedbumps between entrance caves and generals.
I have stated this over and over and over: AV should not be a binary choice of zerg versus turtle.
Well, beyond player choice, I defy you to present one piece evidence that actually forces both teams to engage with each other in 1.5. Not “encourages”, forces. Not “nudges”, forces. Not “guides”, forces. What in AV 1.5, actually forces them to have to stop and fight each other. Plenty of room run right by each other in the middle and never directly cross paths.
Well you seem to have this fantasy that players won’t do what it takes to win the fastest in your version of AV but will do what it takes to win the fastest in the version don’t like. You can’t have it both ways. Players are either going to try to win as fast as possible, or they’re not.
Of that you have no evidence beyond your feels. On the flip side, those of us who actually played the early versions know from experience it not to be true. A video of a mishmash private server is not evidence.
LoL, of course they will try to win as quickly as possible. Who is disputing that? Who do you envision you are trying to convince of that?
Obviously I expected you to change subjects, shift focus, deflect and divert attention. Which you did. I’m quite familiar with these tactics.
The fact remains you have given zero evidence that 1.5-1.7 can even be zerged. I posted a video of 1.12 that shows a 3m45s zerg that also demonstrates teams don’t even need to take out towers. Now, imagine that video but buff Vann by 30%, and then an extra hp buff on top of that. He might already be impossible to take down just with that. Now add on packs of guard npcs that the group has to navigate through. And these guards aren’t slouches…they’re powerful npcs (before the nerfs). Another massive hurdle a group has deal with.
And then there’s the unique angle of features that don’t exist anymore, and haven’t existed in a LONG time. Landmines, goblin shredders, etc. Things that so few players ever experienced, and their only change to is through Classic. But right now that chance doesn’t exist and the only way it can is if the devs reconsider their choice.
What you “know” to be true, is that people didn’t want to just raid but explore and pvp. You can to say the mindset of players is to win as fast as possible. There is not a single NPC that can’t be beaten with the entire 40 man team, beyond maybe the elemental lords. If the “mindset” is “win as fast as we can” the entire team can and will steam roll every NPC it has to, to get the entire team down to the general.
Of a premade. Which it states pretty clearly at the start of your video. Your evidence is pretty invalid.
What you both seem to lack the understanding is that the last few hours I’ve not been saying “they’re just going to run past every NPC and kill the general.”
No, what I’ve been saying is that neither team needs to stop and fight each other. They can ride right past each other and simply kill every NPC and tower/bunker in their way, on their way to the general. There is no group of NPCs that is going to be able to stand up to the entire 40 man team from the other side. Sure it may take longer, but tell me why anyone who is just there to get the rep as quickly as they can, not going to take the more efficient route of just killing their way to the general, rinse and repeating, over spending 3 days in 1 AV? If people can get more rep in 20-30 minutes win/lose over 3-4 hours of fighting an endless battle, why are those people going to chose the 3-4 hour battle?
I personally enjoyed AV in 1.12 - 2.2 because we always had longer 3-4 hour battles. Even saw the horde summon their Ice guy, forget his name once. Neither version from what anyone has said, forces the teams to actually engage each other. The only argument you’ve made is “1.5 is longer and harder.” With the occasional “it can’t be zerged” thrown in. Tell me, do any of you have any definitive proof it can’t be zerged? Or did it never occur to anyone at the time to try because players made the choice to have people on defense?
What you seem to lack the understanding of is that each and every player that gets pwned by the hits-like-truck NPC or landmine is going to rez back behind the main group until there is no “zerg” left. 40 players are not all going to dismount at each GY and tower as a coordinated force, fight the NPCs there and then wait for that objective to flip.
There WOULD be much of the attempted zerg force that will extend themselves beyond the main force, get wiped, get bounced back to the earlier GYs. An attempt at zerg tactics would ultimately result in a force spread out throughout the map, where guess what: the enemy force will be. PVP ensues. It is EXACTLY how it played out in the early versions.
But by all means, continue with the fingers in ears antics.
And you (IIRC) never played the early versions.
Ah yes, the old “convince me of something that didn’t happen, didn’t happen” tact.
Good Grief.
How? You think 40 strangers can’t organize a “Rush to Vann/Drek” order? Because I’ve been part of hundreds of pug AVs that have done that very thing. History literally proves your statement to be completely irrelevant. Pugs zerged AV for years and years and years with complete and utter ease.
As far as the rest of your post…it’s not indicative upon me to prove 1.5-1.7 can be zerged. You’re the one making that claim, so you provide the evidence. I’m still unsure why you prefer 1.12 over say 1.7. I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt that a well organize premade in tier gear might be able to successfully zerg in 1.7. But let’s also say players play some defense and it turns into a longer game.
1.7 offers landmines, goblin shredders, more and more powerful npcs. Portions of the map that no longer exist. 1.12 offers…well, about what you can get in BfA. I believe you said earlier something like ‘Why would anyone want to kill npcs?’ Because that was the original intent of the battleground. It was a mixture of pve and pvp. The devs wanted players who had little interest in pvp to still be able to contribute.
I don’t understand this negativity towards powerful npcs. Is it an ego thing? I understand the game has trained players over the years that their characters are Gods now and npcs are just meaningless fodder. But this is Vanilla we’re talking about. That wasn’t the case. And I miss that. I miss AV being an epic battle between two factions and the players are merely playing a role. 1.12 AV the backstory of the bg is meaningless. The factions are irrelevant.
I want something DIFFERENT. That’s why I’m excited for Classic.
So, players get choice in your version to do what they want, but they have no choice but to zerg in the version you don’t like. This is why I don’t like to argue with you. You have no logical consistency.
“A group of random pugs in 1.12 will totally stay as a group of 40 and just zerg, but that same group of pugs in 1.5 would go in 40 different directions immediately because they can.”
Really? 40 players can choose to all follow a single path/objective and stay and work as a group. So why can’t they do that in 1.5? What’s the difference? Yeah the NPCs are stronger? But if 40 strangers can work as a team to do 1 thing, why can’t they work together to do a similar but harder thing?
I have nothing against how strong the NPCs are. My issue and contention is, that you all act like player choice doesn’t exist in 1.12 and it will be nothing but a zerg, but players have all the choice in the world in your version and they’d never possibly chose to work as a team, stay together, and work down the map while the other team does the same.
Either player choice exists, or it doesn’t.
Player choice exists in either instance. It’s the map that dictates the outcome of that choice. We know the outcome in 1.12. We don’t necessarily know that in 1.7. The buffs inherently make a huge difference. But I presented a circumstance in which a zerg fails and leads to a longer battle and the benefits 1.7 yields.
Let me ask you this: why do you prefer 1.12 over 1.7?
You act like it’s nothing but a zerg. Except every AV I did in 1.12 - 2.2 was not a zerg. We always had people on defense. We always has matches that lasted 3-4 hours at least. It wasn’t until reinforcements that my battlegroup started zerging AV, and even then it wasn’t immediately just a zerg, the strategy evolved over time as we kept losing because of reinforcements.
I don’t. I have no real opinion on early versions. As Broken likes to point out, I never played them. I’m not against having an earlier version. What I am against is the notion that the only way to do 1.12 is to zerg and that 1.12 is nothing but a zergfest. It was never the case for my until… hell I can’t remember when we just started zerging it the way people do now. I know it was after 2.3, maybe after 2.4.
If you want an earlier version of AV, because it was better, make that argument. I’m not against that argument. Just against the notion that 1.12 is a zergfest, when it’s only a zergfest if people chose for it to be.
Your statement might resonate with me more if I haven’t seen literally hundreds of AV zergs, and 1.12 is even easier to zerg than that era (which was mainly TBC and Wrath). I can remember the number of times I was yelled at for trying to play defense. Players would rather lose fast than win long.
You think player mentality is going to magically change in Classic? Based on what? I’ll tell you why teams weren’t zerging back then: they didn’t know they could do it. And that’s not a leap of logic. But players do know it now, and the playerbase’s behavior has proven that’s precisely what they’ll do. Am I saying every single AV will be a zerg? No. But it can be done and quite easily. And objectively MUCH easier than 1.5-1.7. Meanwhile, even if it’s not a zerg 1.7 offers so many things that 1.12 doesn’t. So why go with 1.12?
Is it the Blue post in this thread that says earlier AV had too many npcs, and they were too powerful? Which, quite frankly, makes me feel ill. That’s utterly contrary to the inherent identity of the battleground. Initially, anyway.