Dude they aren’t saying it wasn’t vanilla literally. They are saying its not the AV that makes it the iconic story worthy version that makes it a classic. When people think of old av the version most people are thinking of isnt 1.12. For you and Galdor to keep throwing that around at the very least makes you look super dense or your just trying to be a contrarian to get your troll points.
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Let me say this very clearly: I am of the opinion that the spirit of Vanilla is not captured in a single BG. As for being contrarian, if I am being contrarian, it is in response to the hysterical postings of those saying that Classic with 1.12 will either be a) dead on arrival or b) not much different from retail. Finally, ff there is a polite way to tell somebody to stop getting their knickers in a twist over something that won’t happen for months without their reacting as if I’d challenged them to pistols at dawn, I’ll be certain to use it going forward.
Blizz double speak.
Their actions actually mean that it’s “easiest and least”
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https://strawpoll.com/1gp893s3
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2394028-Alterac-Valley-Original-or-Nerfed-version/page2
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took a break from the forums, glad to hear this news! This is exactly what I wanted!
Prime example right here why we need bnet tags on the forum. “Took a break” (has been posting on another character about blizzard not having the data)
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? I haven’t touched the forums in over a month lol. What other character do you think I am? This should be interesting. Guess I over exaggerated as my lost post before today was March 5th, but that already has my stance on Blizzard not having the data.
Them using 1.12 AV is a straight up tragedy…
Blizz is like Trump for a lot of people, Blizz could go downtown and shoot someone dead and some of these people wouldn’t blink an eye, they’d be like Blizz had to do what they had to do and then rationalize killing the person.
Using 1.12 AV goes against their stance on “Warts and all”…its counter to what they’ve said. When you do that you start to lose trust and when you lose trust people lose faith in the project and the Devs. ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
THE BEST THING THEY CAN DO IS REVERSE COURSE ADMIT THEY MADE A MISTAKE AND MOVE ON.
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Let’s not invoke politics. ![:yum:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/yum.png?v=6" ":yum:")
But yes, 1.12 is a poor choice. It’s just a mindless race, and an incredibly easy zerg. You don’t even have to worry about taking down the towers.
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“Warts and All”
(except when we claim dog ate our homework)
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I’ve linked this video a few times, but I just want to demonstrate what you can expect in 1.12 AV. This was uploaded October 2006, aka the 1.12 patch. I timestamped it to after their whole team has raced to the enemy base.
So what do they do? Well, first they’re disposing of Prospestor Stonehewer, one of those fodder mods that was nerf into oblivion in the 1.8 and 1.11 npc nerfs. After that you’ll see two hunters each aggro the outer Marshals. This in turns aggros the inner Marshals, but not Vann…who just stands there. The hunters then run away, and the tank grabs Vann and pulls him. The hunters feign, the Marshals reset and…do nothing. Now the raid is able to solo down Vann.
This is due to the fact that the aggros weren’t linked until 2.3.0. Also, the stacking buff wasn’t added until 2.4.0. So destroying the towers literally does nothing. Your team will run to the enemy boss, aggro the marshals (or warmasters on the other faction), draw them away, grab Vann/Drek, leash the other npcs and see who can solo the boss the fastest.
Now some people will say ‘oh you can do this in 1.5-1.7 AV’. So let’s look at the changes that pertain to that claim. 1.8 was a 15-30% nerf to all npcs in AV. 1.11 and to quote the patch notes…
- Most of the NPC guard units have been removed.
Not some, not many, but most have been removed. Oh, and also - Creatures that remain in Alterac Valley have had their hit points reduced.
So we have massive nerfs, massive removal of guard npcs on the map. Not to mention nerfs to Vann himself. Imagine him 30% stronger, plus who who knows how many more hp. We see the impact when raid bosses get nerfed 5%. Suddenly it goes from a handful of guilds clearing them to hundreds. So just think about the kind of influence a 30% buff would have on Vann and Drek.
Now am I saying it’s mathematically impossible to still zerg earlier versions? I don’t know if it is or not. What I do now is it’s cake to do in 1.12, and objectively harder to do earlier. My suggestion is 1.7. You get way more npcs, those npcs are far more powerful. You get landmines (they were removed in 1.8). You get goblin shredders (they were removed in 1.10). You get two parts of the map that were removed, you get a buffed Kornak. You get an actual, epic battle.
I do see mention in the 1.8 patch notes of terrain changes to fix geometry exploits. I’m not sure exactly what that means, but if there’s bug that allows wall hacks then by all means fix that. Maybe the use of the 7.3.5 and it’s anti-wall hacking implementation does that already.
So why didn’t these zergs happen every game back after 1.12? Well, the simple answer: players didn’t know it was possible. But now they will. And the mindset has changed a bit as well. Players have been programmed to look for the patch of least Resistance. They’ll figure out the most efficient way to get honor (a quick win or a quick loss) and that’s what they’ll do. The only way to stop this is to use a version of the map where that’s not possible, or much, much, MUCH harder to pull off. Sometimes players need to be forced to have fun, because they’ll avoid it if it means they can get that shiny carrot by some easier method.
Ok, that was a long post. I just hope players understand what they can expect if the devs solidify in their decision on using 1.12 AV. But sadly…maybe that’s their only choice. Maybe they don’t have the older data and/or they don’t have the time or resources to try to recreate it. That would be unfortunate, but somewhat understandable. But if this is a deliberate design decision, I truly hope the devs rethink their choice.
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I would say you’re trying to use an outlandish example to try to proclaim every single AV match is going to be just like the one you posted.
I’m not stating the zerg strat will not be dominant, however to think no one will try to counter it and everyone will just go with the flow is foolish to me.
All it takes is 1 hunter, 1 tank. All you have to do is pull one side, pull captain and the other tanks tank the marshals. It would be slightly harder, sure, but doable considering dmg done by them.
Also I think you are underestimating players now-a-day’s. It’s easier to find information online, so you can be sure those who enjoy pvp know about this, and those who want to play Classic more or less know about it, or heard about it. Doesn’t take long to find it.
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And you don’t think people would try to stop it if it stated to happen regularly?
why? it’s faster to zerg captain. Some might try but for the most part no one would because they want fast games.
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You’re entire argument though is based on the assumption everyone will play the game exactly the same way. Sure zerging is the more efficient solution, but instead of focusing on speed, maybe have a premade that is focused on winning and not just speed.
Choices you make within the group should matter, if you choose to not counter a zerg because you want faster games, that’s on your group. Isn’t player choices mattering something we want back?
You mean the way they’ve played it since they figured out you could just rush the enemy base? You act like this hasn’t been happening in the vast majority of AVs for the past decade+.
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Yep, but mentality also matters.
1.5AV prevents mentality as you need the player and npc drop items to increase your push, thus player choices do matter.
1.5AV also allows defenders to be in smaller numbers, but still be effective enough to disrupt the enemy’s advance if they don’t counter you correctly.
Also the difference here is, 1.12AV gives players no reason not to zerg. MoH, rep, and w/e honor you get would be more then grinding the opposing faction.
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From my experience rated BG’s are rarely a zerg rush.
Again it’s up to the majority of the party of how they want to play. If you made a premade and stated you didn’t want to zerg and other people agreed with you, than what’s the problem?
If everyone was playing to optimize to the fullest no one would be hybrid classes.
You have the capability to choose not to zerg.
The only reason you need is you just don’t want to play it that way and you just need 39 other people who agree with you. From the forums it looks like a lot of people will agree with you.
all the AV’s i’ve ever been in sense BC was rush towers then captain apart from the few times captains/marshals where so weak you could zerg them.
Reason being, there is no other reason to do anything but Zerg. You don’t get more honor, more marks, more rep, nothing, you get most if it from finishing the game so no point in doing anything but that, finish the game.
The reason why to forums agree is because that’s what we see in retail. You might be lucky enough not to get those games, but most of them work that way when I play AV.
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