Alterac Valley in Classic

A few new talking points to chew into.

First, crossrealm. I saw this briefly mentioned and wanted to say why i believe it to be a terrible idea. One of the most enjoyable aspects of vanilla pre xrealm bgs was carrying over guild hatreds, or realm forum vendettas into BGs. You’d rarely see people on your KoS list in the open world, but if you and they pvpd a bit, you were very likely to see them in one of the BGs. This made for some fantastic rivalries. My rogue hated coming out of stealth in AV because once those cooldowns were blown, i was a free lunch. Even if i had vanish up, i was still a free lunch. But i cant describe the pure joy of getting round behind the alliance zerg and pouncing on someone from the forums. Sure, it was a murder-suicide, but the satisfaction of seeing them go down made it completely worthwhile. If you never played pre-crossrealms or skipped the realm forums when they were smack talking hell and not just guild recruitment forums, you might not see this dynamic and wouldnt genuinely understand why it matters. But it really did. It was one of the most enjoyable aspects of guild and realm identity.

On the zerg 1.5 or 1.12 and the teaching issue. Obviously outside of premades (which were basically queue cheating (all click on a countdown in voice coms) if i remember right for AV and werent integrated for the majority of vanilla), it CAN be done.
I think almost everyone on forums knows how to shut down an alliance or horde zerg in AV right now. Every single player could rightly point out that you stick 5-10 people in IB to slow down the zerg, then use another 10 to hold them at the choke in relief hut. Let them cap sf, use the other 15 or so to recap ib and sh and a few rogues/druids to cap and hold sp, now the alliance is split, your team is respawning around their forward advance until IB/SH cap and then you move up the map pushing them further and further into their own territory. Its just a case at this point of pulling down the bunkers and crossing that bridge of death.

Now everyone knows how to win. You could make it so theres a test and they cant queue without a passing grade. But i guarantee you, the second they join the BG they’ll give zero concern for the overriding strategy of the battleground and go do their own thing. That’s issue one. You could teach pugs till youre blue in the face how to win av. But its just NOT that important. This isnt a raid boss. Win or lose you get stuff.

Point 2 is more interesting: I made this post around post 400. Its reasonably long, but it comes down to this: The incentives in AV 1.12 strongly encourage neither winning nor losing. They encourage honor/time. That means if you are going to win, its always better to win quickly and if youre going to lose it is always better to lose quickly. Prepare yourself, oh leader of the horde for the amount of people telling you to “shut up” in chat and “ffs! just let them win”. You can tell them the greatest zerg strat in the universe, but if it fails, god help you. You’ll see people talking about it for weeks in every other AV join: the mythical AV where horde turtled, still lost and wasted everyones time so ‘ffs just let them win’.

Point 3 is also interesting. In BC they recognised AV had serious issues with engagement. Horde were at a reasonable disadvantage. The bridge of death was way more tricky then the RH gates. Pallies on alliance were faster than anything on horde (obviously fixed with BE pallies in BC), the bunkers were harder to cap than the towers, and finally the starting cave was effectively further from the center of the map. This meant a small contingent of alliance could race to the RH, pull it down, then despawn the warmasters (known exploit), and be joined quickly by the rest of the alliance zerg for the take down of drek. So they changed the overriding mechanics several times to balance this out. Now alliance were on the receiving end of thumping horde wins as they backcapped towers and played strategically whilst alliance kept trying the old strategy. Eventually it evened out more, and thus modern AV was born. Games were more even, but pvp was totally marginalised. It really became a pve race with minor tower skirmishing. Im not here to talk about the pros and cons, but only to draw attention to the fact that blizzard had long known the damage 1.8-1.12 AV had done to the battleground and looked at ways to improve it. But at this point in time they were very much following a guiding philosophy of in and out playstyles. One where players could come home on their lunch break, grab a few dungeon runs or BGs and go back to work. So of course their solutions to those vanilla issues were built to address the long drawn out battles.

But a fair question might be whether this playstyle suits the overriding philosophy of classic which appears to be a back to basics of long drawn out time commitments and player interaction with other players. Would a modern 20 minute emp run fit in with the philosophy of classic for example? Of course not. It should be 72 hours long just like tyhe old days and nothing less :slight_smile: Yet pvp is still being treat with the same modern aesthetic to the game. And though completely fitting with vanilla (where pvp was always a secondary concern to the developers), it does feel a little unfair now that they know how passionate that community is.

So the overriding issues in summary: The philosophy of classic is to get players interacting again and create that living breathing mmo world. Crossrealm BGs undermine this, as does short pve battlegrounds. However as mentioned earlier in another post, that isnt to say 1.12 is awful. Were the incentives in the BG looked at seriously and changes made to encourage player v player over player v end boss, they could just as easily deliver an AV the vast majority would be satisfied with.

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I don’t think anyone argue that in 1.5, Zerg rush cannot be done. But it is considerably harder considering that there are more NPCs and they have more HP.
So yes, a geared premade would be able to do it. But this issue doesn’t come down only to the zerg rush.

It’s all about the feeling of the battleground, the atmosphere that feels like a real ongoing battle. In 1.12, the BG is pretty much empty, there is little to no challenge even if it’s not a zerg rush. You meet the opposing faction once near Balinda, and then you go to the boss …

Blizzard, you have listened the community once about the content release phases, please change your decision about 1.12 AV. This masterpiece you are working on is here to last, make it memorable with one of the best thing this game ever had: pre 1.10 AV

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I’d like to start off by asking what do you mean by “gives us most clarity”? Do you mean as in that you have the most clean and sure information and data?

My problem with this is that it feels like it was a move to shorten AV. What I am trying to say is that is reducing the length of time or the requirements to see a fully completed game an improvement or not? Going back to the base idea behind Vanilla/Classic is that having things take time makes them much more valuable and worth the effort. Steamrolling through AV is not what I picture doing in Classic’s version of AV.

Most stories we hear of 1.5 AV are of how it would be epicly long battles where you could log off, go to sleep, get up go through your day, get on and join the same battle you were in the day before! People seem to have loved the idea of this. That an AV was a full blown out long battle, not a zerg rush to the end.

I want to point out that the idea that players can simply turtle is a folly point. Many players said “you can just not use flying mounts” to anti-flyers but that didn’t work for them. That’s because if given the necessary tools, the mindset of the player is to use the tools whether they advance the game play or not simply because they are the better option for achieving the end goal.

This actually removes a sense of immersion and rp element. Bringing back proof of kills was a great way to gain notability and would encourage players to go out and kill enemy players and then take risks to loot corpses in the middle of a battle. I feel like this added a sense of immersion and should remain.

Here’s a debatable argument that is drawn out to show a flushed out perspective to support 1.5 AV.
" 1.5 AV is an experience that was unique to vanilla warcraft and one that we can no longer attain thoroughly without relying on the use of PSs that likely use incorrect codes and have a form of AV that does not hold true to the original 1.5 AV.

One of the largest concepts that made Vanilla Warcraft something great was that it took time, effort and evolved various forms of difficulty that arise from simple coding. Going with the more streamlined 1.12 version of AV is going against that. Comparing the differences between 1.5 and 1.12 is akin in various ways to comparing Classic to Current. 1.5 being slower and giving a more difficult feeling while 1.12 rewarding the concept of zerg rushing and getting everything done quickly.

Many have argued that we can just force turtles in AV. Do you argue that we should allow flight as well? Because that is the very same argument that pro-flight players make. “You can just not fly” Given the ability to use something the players will be forced by their own mental state to use what they are given rather than break away and try to replicate what would effectively make the game better. Current wow would be much more fun if it were more difficult and slower to get through everything, but next to no one ever does the things that would help produce such results simply because “why not take advantage of the tools you have?”.

Besides. How often have we heard arguments from people who experienced 1.5 AV that it was a terrible form? Sure you could argue that at the time people may have complained while playing the game. Just like someone is going to complain about having to make 100 gold by level 40, that complaint is a current thought that will go by and be forgotten later. Real issues are not forgotten. They stand and they will be used to remind others. So has anyone come out with real issues about 1.5 AV?

So what are the real problems with doing 1.5 AV?
It will take longer to make, yes that is true. I was one of the few in a recent thread that noticed that they stated in the recent blizzcon that coding was lost between patches due to the way they worked during Vanilla. This sadly means that 1.5 AV data could be all but gone now. That is a “could” not a guarantee. So we should be asking Blizzard if they have the data to sculpt 1.5 AV or not. And if not then if they have enough vanilla evidence to thoroughly replicate 1.5 AV.

Blizzard will try to do this as cheaply and easily as possible, likely. Using 1.12 AV is much easier for Blizzard to create. That is true. But lowering our expectations and just accepting what Blizzard says to make it easier on them is EXACTLY what the anti-vanilla/classic forumers did. What did those of us who argued for vanilla servers for so long do? We argued for something that would take time, work and effort to be done. To simply give in now, when we have these final chances is laughable. We have classic coming now, this is a chance to let Blizzard know exactly what we want.

I feel if the community is more supportive of a 1.5 AV then they will give in like they did with Classic. Arguing that just because they will likely take the easy route is silly. We should be arguing for what we WANT , not just what we will ACCEPT . Simple as that. Let’s make this game the best version of vanilla as possible. We want Classic Vanilla experience. I feel that 1.5 AV better represents that than 1.12. 1.12 might have had more players experiencing it, but at that point AV was already being streamlined to be an easier and faster BG. That is not what we want with Vanilla.

I feel that the majority of vanilla supporting players can agree that we would rather them take their time and give us a perfected Classic rather than rushing it out settling for points that make the game feel weaker. Thus giving in to the “Well it is easier so they will do it” argument is a weak point to make."

Please reconsider what you do with AV. Even if it means offering two forms of AV at the same time I feel that having long drawn out real battles that are hard on the players but offer better immersion and greater incentive for conflict against actual players rather than avoiding the opposing forces to rush to the end and kill a raid boss is by far the best option.

In the end the comparison of 1.5 AV to 1.12 AV is much like that of Classic to Current in the eyes of a Classic player. 1.12 is rinsed off and cleaned up like what we see with Current, it runs smoother and faster with less material to work with and a higher pace to get players through the content. That’s NOT what we want. Classic is about a rough edged land that has content and material all around on its own with numerous immersive details and a form that rewards the idea of going after the objectives you WANT to go for, not feeling pushed into a straight line. 1.5 AV is a model for how Classic is to the general Classic player. It is rough, it is harder and slower, it takes a lot of time and it takes critical thinking. You must deal with the atmosphere and figure things out around you. Zerging can happen but it is very unlikely and can cost your team dearly. It has more immersive tools and more material for the players to work with by far and wide compared to that of 1.12. I truly believe that 1.5 AV is by far the premium option for Classic.

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Well said…

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Lets look at this from a bean counter perspective.
Which decision would lead people to reconsider and lose desire to resub to the game:

  • 1.12 AV
  • 1.5-1.7 AV
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Whenever rep awards were introduced, Zergs were already a thing, and were done by PuGs. From what i read online, I believe it was when AV was introduced or 1.7. I know because i was one of those win fast or lose fast. lol.

AV isn’t a little thing. It’s one of only three vanilla BGs, and for many (including myself), it’s our favorite BG.

I wouldn’t be complaining, beyond a post or two expressing my disappointment, if Blizzard came right out and stated that it wasn’t feasible to implement 1.5 due to time or technical constraints. They know their schedule, and what they can or can’t do. However, their blue post indicates that choosing 1.12 is the result of a deliberate design decision, not a technical roadblock, which is very concerning…

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I guess now loot trading been fixed we can’t complain about AV anymore LOL

I’d be more accepting of this if they hadn’t said that 1.12 has improvements like less and weaker NPCs, because now it seems like a design decision rather than an inability to recreate an older version. They had an opportunity to make something that’s impossible to experience anymore, and instead we get the same old same old. Yes, I know technically 1.12 has differences between that and the BfA version of AV, but for all intents and purposes it’ll be the same experience: two armies passing one another in a mad rush to kill the General as quickly as possible. Why? For the very reasons they stated…nerfing and removing of NPCs that facilitates this kind of tactic.

It’s still authentic Vanilla, but man…they could have made something truly great and unique.

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I’m going to tell you this again, just to help you make a sound point. The NPC’s in BfA AV scale now, I don’t think it’s a very feasible strategy to ride to the General and kill him without capping the towers first. I did an AV yesterday, we had to deal with Horde defensive groups at every tower.

I want the more complete AV experience in Classic. I want them to return all the removed NPC’s and even attempt to recreate the landmines in the battleground. However, attempting to convince Blizzard of something that isn’t true, is NOT the way to do it. Blizzard isn’t stupid, they know how the battles are unfolding in BfA.

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It would be ironic if BfA’s AV is zerged less often than Classic’s will be. I’ll try to remember to note the percentage of my AV games that result in a zerg, for science (and comparison to BfA).

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Yeah, I don’t know how often 1.12 will be zerged. I do know that you can’t say “1.12 will be a zerg, 1.5 won’t be cause the NPC’s are 30% stronger.” Obviously, the battles will be slowed down but the rhetoric claiming that one version will always be a zerg and the other will never be a zerg is dishonest at best.

People are going to gear up, they’re going to be in T2 and T3 at some point and the NPC’s in any version of AV that was in Vanilla are going to get trashed.

If people’s really wanted the battles to be immune to a zerg type strategy, they’d be asking for them to change the NPC’s to scale with gear.

I mean, it’s better than live, but not enough. The later patches made AV too linear and simple by removing the neutral objectives(such as Syndicate or the Winterax Village).

The more objectives there are, the better it is because the more player skill is required to asses what currently is always the best objective to go for. The more player skill required, the more longevity and fun each player gets to have fun in the game.

The BG begins to feel less like a BG and more like actual battle that feels like it takes part in the game world instead of an instance, complete with neutral factions and all, as you would expect if you were PvPing in a questing area. The only changes needed at that point are honor changes to make it more competitive with the other 2 BG’s. Ie. you should be able to reach HWL just by playing AV, if that’s what you really like.

Completely disagree.

  • Having a large amount of NPC’s is good for the immersion and strategy. The more factions there are, the more immersive the battleground will feel. And the more objectives there are, the more longevity and more fun the battleground will have.
  • Having the NPC’s harder to kill makes the game feel more like a PvPvE instance, that is part of the world, similar to BRD, instead of an ad hoc “battleground,” that is created solely for the sake of PvP.

If you want to kill other players, you can just play WSG or AB. Why make AV exactly the same?

I disagree with this sentiment completely. Reducing the NPC health makes the BG too easy and braindead compared to original AV. If you want an easy BG, just play WSG/AB.

Korrak was a problem only after they removed Winterax Village, Gnolls and the Syndicate. If he resides in the Winterax village, he won’t be a problem for people trying to pass through the midfield.

If Korrak isn’t interesting enough in the pre 1.5 state, then think of ways capturing Winterax Village would give some sort of benefit for your faction, perhaps as an extra base, than outright removing him.

Adding more strategy makes the BG more fun, not less.

But in any case removing Korrak or any other of the objectives is not an option. 1.4 Korrak → 1.12.1 Korrak still any day of the week.

I do hope you remember that the original grind to HWL isn’t reasonable. It is impossible to reach a rank of HWL if you have a dayjob. HWL requires a ludicrous grind with no pauses unlike PvE, where you can progress at your own pace, and needs to be changed.

Just because HWL requires a grind, doesn’t mean it has to require you to complete that grind in the same session, or that you’d have to compete with other players that have no job and potentially account sharing to get their rank.

It’s just a completely unfair system to any legit player and to people who are being productive members of the society, and thus needs to be changed.

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I really hope they give us vanilla PvP and don’t give us their crappy retail version/philosophies behind PvP. I hate retail PvP because it’s just esports crap and not what MMO PvP should be about. PvP is the ONLY reason for me to play Vanilla WoW and if they screw it up I’ll never get to experience the PvP I’ve wanted again for 12+ years ever again…

It makes me so sad, and I want Blizzard to stop trying to force retail PvP design onto Vanilla PvP. Give me my small community, my day long AV’s, my 5 hour WSG turtles. Give me my rivalries with my opposite faction, my forum drama, the trash talking, the egos. I want to know every single person I fight with and against in bgs because I see them all the time, and see them in the open world afterwards as well. I don’t want 15 minute games, I don’t want people only doing pvp for gear.

I can still remember the names and guilds of nearly everyone on both factions in Vanilla that pvped. Post cross-server I remember no one and no guilds, they’re just faceless players in a huge crowd, essentially npcs to me.

I want to play with people who PvP simply to PvP, for faction pride, for their own pride, whatever, but I want it to be with and against people I KNOW, even if that means 3 hour queues, I’d rather wait for 3 hours for 1 nice match than get instant queues for 3 hours of people who might as well be NPCs. I’ve already waited ~12 years, it’s not like I can’t wait any longer for same server community PvP.

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All I desire is at least 1 classic WoW server that has the honor system so pvp is incentivized but NO “canned pvp” - no battlegrounds. World pvp was the most fun. Trust me, players knew how to invent their own battlegrounds.

Sadly, I fear Blizzard has fallen out of touch with their community, and likely will not provide such a server. I miss the days when Blizzard was unapologetic and in tune with their community. One can hope.

To those that think a 1.5 or 1.7 AV would still be a zerg race, you must not have ever played it.

A 40 man premade would have a very hard time zerging the early versions of AV due to the strength of the npcs, the amount of them, and the mines that are everywhere that do AE damage of 2000-3000 per hit. I’d be surprised if no more than 4-5 out of 40 would survive a Horde raid attempting to ride to SPGY.

As the npcs were removed and nerfed, zerg racing became more and more common. When 1.12 released, it was pretty much the norm due to people screaming in chat about not wanting anyone to defend just to end the game as soon as possible.

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Which means that a fair number of people that played Vanilla and were able to compare different versions of AV decided, when given the choice, to actively avoid long drawn out battles and instead race towards the prize.

Incorrect. Path of least resistance gaming fallacy.

1.12 made a faster route with less resistance more viable. To assume that that is better because people chose that route is like saying the game would be better if you just needed to press one button to get all of your BiS gear.

They do it because it is faster and has less resistance. That does not make it better. This form of thinking is how Current got to where it is.

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Doing everything and anything for that little cereal box prize is why WoW devolved into the mess that is BFA.

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It’s pretty depressing that history is repeating itself before Classic even releases…

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