This this, so much this.
This is actually the largest reason we need to fight for 1.5 AV. Because the reasoning in the blue post here is the same mental thinking that formulated current WoW and as Iāve stated it is the perfect representation of Classic vs Current.
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I donāt need to play Classic WoW now! YAY!
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Isnāt a make or break as pvp was never really my cup of tea just something I dipped into now and then but still I wish they would put in the effort of making the proper version of AV in classic.
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Just make the good version and have crbgs so everyone is happy.
I never said anything about it being better. I said it was preferred. And I have yet to see an iota of evidence that any version of AV was somehow objectively better than the others. All Iāve seen is people saying that 1.5 was better because in their minds long AV battles are what the spirit of Vanilla WoW was all about which is nothing more than just another opinion.
And I do believe that there are players who would happily take all of their BiS gear for a single button push. Anybody that doesnāt think that the prizes matter should go to YouTube, check out some of the ninja loot rage videos and see how players reacted when they didnāt get the prizes they worked hard to get.
Two problems with what your sayingā¦ the first is that the npcs drastically changed the nature of how the map played. It would be akin to removing the minions from HoTS it breaks what the actual content was.
The secondā¦ rewards didnāt work like that in classic. You wouldnāt get your gear from AV being done quickly as its based on who had the most kills during the week. At best it would get you to exalted quickly to get a discount on your mount but power wise it wouldnāt be super useful.
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Second thing first: The rewards remark was a response to the comment about whether or not players would take BiS gear in exchange for a button push rather than earning it. And I said I believed some players would do exactly that because some players value the rewards so much that they donāt care how they get them.
First thing second, I havenāt played HoTS so I donāt understand the reference. However, I do believe that if the desire for long battles had been strong enough, the players would have found a way. After all, players went out and found a way to play a version of WoW that was no longer available.
That is as dense as suggesting to people to RP walk their characters in order to make the match last longer. Both you and the current developers have a serious disconnect as to why earlier AV was better and what goes into compelling gaming content.
What does this even refer to?
I personally went out of my way to stop paying blizzard for worse and worse content and screwing up the content that started out good.
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A debate mistake confusing the reference between objective and subjective. There is a problem with your point here though. Most arguments for making a game objectively better rely on the idea of subjective point of view. I mean what makes a game objectively better?
Youāre proving my point though with this statement. Everyone would do that. And if you did not do it you would be gravely hindering yourself. Thatās the āPath of least resistanceā issue. Reducing the need to go through content and to do things that require time and effort within a game for no legitimate reason is by my belief making a game objectively worse.
A game with more content, more levels of difficulty or material that makes you work harder/longer to reach the eventual goal is more likely to be successful than one that does not. There are other, MANY OTHER, variables that account into this of course.
Same problem with this argument as before.
Path of least resistance. (PoLR)
I was an anti-flight person during the WoD flight debacle. In case you are not aware of what I am referencing, during WoD Blizzard stated they decided to not introduce flight into WoD zones. General Discussion forums were wrought with hellfire, the legion had invaded in the form of angry forumers and yeah. . . And what did they say to people like me? āThen donāt fly!ā This is essentially what you are saying.
Hereās the problem with that. Me not flying was me putting myself at a disadvantage where other players who even felt the same way (my home realm LOVED not having flight but PoLR kicked in) grabbed flight and wpvp on my home server dropped massively.
In this case, you could argue people to turtle, but then there will be a mass of people who say āwhy turtle when we can get this done fast?!ā Why? Because they want more honor and ranking up better, they want that victory more often and as much as they can get it. People will chose what works best. Even if they want to chose the other path, itās rare to go against the grind like that.
As for players that found a way to play the other version. Thatās players that created a way to remove the easier path so that when they played they were not given the easier route.
Let me try to make a good example here.
In current when I make a new character I have a 70% speed mount right from level 1! In Classic I will not get a mount till level 40 and even then it is 60%. I prefer how Classic works because the first 40 levels feel longer and more adventurous while the land feels much larger due to my speed and pace. Then when I hit 40 the mount is a huge deal, I wanted level 40 badly because I wanted that mount! It was a reward, not only a reward for leveling but in 7 of the 9 class cases a reward for making sure I had 100G to spend on it at that moment.
Now say Classic suddenly offered me that lvl 1 70% mount. I know technically that the game is going to feel better overall if I do not use that mount. However I also know that if I use it I can get to those higher levels faster, I can get more done faster. Now that is a personal reward based benefit that encourages me to do it because doing it gets me to my goal posts faster. Add in the fact that other people are using it means I am then disadvantaging myself massively compared to other players. The pressure of that alone will make me use it. Iāve even tried leveling a char without using it in current game like half a year back and that urging feeling like āDude why am I wasting my time running through Elwynn when I can quickly ride thereā overpowered my want for the world to feel massive.
My feelings for the game then suffer because I got through content faster, the world felt shorter, the rewards came faster, I effectively consumed the game at a faster pace that did not allow me to enjoy it to its fullest. But human nature tells me, if I have a tool that will make the job easier, USE IT.
Thatās the problem with the argument of āJust turtle 1.12 AVā or āPeople were wanting to zerg because they wanted that!ā.
Likely PS.
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I donāt want the modern rush tactics to be able to be used, old av with all npcs ftw
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If the entire debate between 1.5 and 1.12 boils down to some variation of āBlizzard needs to save players from themselvesā, I canāt argue against that. Itās depressing, but I canāt disagree.
Level 1?!?!?!? Has retail really gotten that bad? I havenāt played since early Legion and havenāt started a new character in years (this isnāt entirely true. I used to love creating DKs just so that I could play through the beginning before deleting them and starting over.) It sounds like Blizz has gone from hand holding to picking players up and carrying them.
See thatās the entire thing behind āPath of Least Resistanceā. We as human beings are designed to think āI have tool/option that makes this go by faster and easier therefore I must use this tool!ā Itās almost hardwired into our brains.
If you have attained I believe 35 heirlooms then you get access to a free Chauffeur mount. Itās a Mekigneerās Chopper with an npc driving the main seat as your character sits in the side seat. It is 70% instead of 60% thus faster for you even if you bother getting the first mount which is at level 20.
Current Game mounts are account wide generally. So once you have it on one char all have it.
As to how bad has it gotten?
I can login right now, make a level 1 and with that level 1 I can use my heirloom window to create 2 rings, a neck piece, a cape, chest, shoulders, leggings, and helm as well as weapons/staff etc. Oh and two trinkets too. Have them all equipped. And then I could even mog that into Teir 2 right now as well. I have a lvl 1 paladin in Judgement appearance (minus gloves/bracers and boots). Then get on my 70% mount and 1-2 shot mobs my lvl.
Also going to class trainers is non-existent now. You get spells for free as you level, they literally hop from thin air onto your bars. You can change talents whenever inside a city. And you have access to all specs simply by going to spec page and clicking one spec then clicking a button to change over.
I also have a flight path right from the level 6 town such as Goldshire. So I donāt even need to run back and forth from there to SW. And speaking of Elwynn, thereās a FP in the far end town too and a quest sends you off on a mount straight to it so you donāt have to walk/run even if you have no mount.
In Legion I tested myself. I did this on all 3 of my favorite classes, Paladin, Hunter and Druid.
At lvl 11 in all heirlooms, I entered Deadmines. Still considered a lvl 15 instance. I soloād it on all 3 characters, each coming out at lvl 19. And this was supposed to be ā5 man contentā but heirlooms are just that OP.
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I can see why original AV (as much as I loved it) might not be the best choice overall, but have you considered implementing both versions and running the epic, marathon one as a week long event that happened every couple of months?
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As others have stated, my sincere thanks for your continued communication and updates.
In the next breath, I will tell you that Iām mightily disappointed by this particular news. By 1.12, AV has been reduced to a shell of its former self. Changes between 1.8 and 1.12 fundamentally altered the strategies employed by each side to win, reducing a complex, multi-faceted PvE/PvP experience to a boring, mindless zerg of the final boss, plus a bit of thumb-twiddling and nose-picking waiting for towers to cap. This lack of dimensionality, I believe, will have severe impact on player willingness to re-engage with this content, diverting many away from AV entirely (or at least predominantly) . This isnāt restoring the classic Alterac Valley experience so much as it is taking its current structure in retail (sans reinforcements) and scaling NPC statistics back down to 60. I would submit that this is NOT consistent with your stated goal of restoring the true classic Vanilla WoW experience.
When I queue for a battleground, I expect PvP to be a major component of the experience at a minimum, which is a reasonable assumption in my mind. Releasing AV in its pure 1.12 state will greatly diminish this aspect of the BG, and I strongly urge you to consider necessary alterations (pulling from previous patches) to ensure this battleground is implemented in a meaningful, engaging way.
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Yup. 1.12 AV is all but identical to what modern retail offers.
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Please bring back the original AV, The pvp grinders will only do wsg and AB anyway. The old bosses and npcs/looting quest items were the best part of AV. Not having all of that makes AV boring because of the zerg rush to the end its basically zero pvp. Todays game is so watered down and boring, classic is a revival of actually working and earning rewards. I made a new character (druid) the other day and you have a mana bar but your spells donāt even require mana its so lame, had to log out and wait for classic to return for the actual fun. Thatās why the game has declined in subs ever since cata, it keeps getting easier outside of mythic raiding, the every day experience is boring. Lich king had some easy content compared to Classic and TBC but we still had harder leveling compared to now. Iām so excited to not be able to pull 6-10 npcs at once and mow them down like nothing. Please do not add cross realm pvp or world phasing either!
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I know man its lame as hell. I wont be logging on regular anymore once classic is released. The fun is actually working hard to earn something and having complex character choices.
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Please bring back the original AV! The event was so epic, even if not the most practical. It was one of the most defining experiences in Vanilla. It would be tragic to not allow players to experience it again. Why not at least bring it back for a few patches?
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I like the idea of keeping AV 1.12 as itās a 1.12 wow we are getting, although it might be fun to make a event āwar escalationā in which we play with the 1.5 AV but that might upset the strict #nochange people and might be a infeasible tech issue also.