Raptor/Mongoose bite, Wildfire bomb, Serpent sting, Kill command, flanking strike and even explosive shot.
I swear yall get hooked on buzz words and forget every other spell that exists
and yes explosive shot and serpent sting still count as rotational abilities because what else are you selecting?
And you will just mention any and every ability and claim its in our rotation.
On live i exclusively use SS if i want to pull/tag something. Even used optimally its barely 2-3% of my overall damage. Just so laughably bad its not a rotational ability.
An ability does not become rotational just because you have it. The core rotation for Hunters on live is bombs and KC. In DF it wont be much better. Aoe will be bombs and carve and then something between as filler if you lack haste. For ST you’ll just want to focus mongoose bite and then use KC for focus regen in between. Unless something gets mad overtuned (for example SS) you will lose dps to use it rotationally. Again for ST you will probably use ES or something on cd as filler.
If you think that Hunter is some awesome class with deep mechanics and high skill ceiling good for you. But it really isnt. And in DF we wont even be able to get our full current toolkit back so… Yeah
2% is being used optimally?
The pheromone bomb rotation is bombs and KC
In df it will be much better, between being able to easily spec into Hydras Bite equaling more spread serpent sting, volatile bomb also spreading serpent sting sting, vipers venom being added into the equation and ranger buffing its damage means that serpent sting will be an even bigger source of damage for sv hunters.
Plus since it costs focus it still works with our mastery on the same level as raptor strike.
I don’t know what is going on with some sv hunters these days that are suddenly against serpent sting just because its not baseline for sv anymore when it literally fits in our rotation way easier than any other hunter spec. Yall are mad trippin.
Did you even read my reply to you at all? You seriously are considering explosive shot and serpent sting apart of the core survival rotation?
Okay. Strip. I have an eye-opening experiment for you. I want you to take a look at the fury Warrior talent tree and the general Warrior talent tree. In the general class tree you will see that Warriors have access to the ability Rend. Now according to your stance, Rend would then be considered a fury Warrior core rotational ability. It is not too dissimilar to serpent sting. I want you to look through the fury Warrior talents and their abilities and see if you see any interplay between the fury Warrior abilities and talents. Let me know what you find.
Until then the rest of us who want to see survival Hunter more than just a two button rotation will continue to try and get the Developers to add some depth and synergy to survival Hunter. Just like all the other DPS specs have.
I still want FS to be our generator and KC to be a spender, but id settle for the FS passive that got replaced to come back under a new name. And Lacerate would be a nice bleed button
Id be okay with FS being our generator as long as it also gives a bit of focus to the pet too. Im less inclined to have Kill Command at all to be honest. I dont want to borrow from BM at all. I agree with much of the naysayers on that point. It is all together ridiculous that SV has to borrow a spec defining ability from BM and masquerade as if it fits into SV.
Flanking Strike Generator > Raptor Strike Spender > Lacerate Big Spender and Synergy builder.
I do like the idea of adding something like
Devilsaur Bite
Survival Hunter Ability
50 focus. Requires Melee Weapon
Instant Cast. 20 second cooldown
Leap into the air and perform a massive driving attack at your target causing 1000% AP damage.
This ability always crits if you are behind your target. Critical strikes with Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite reduce the cooldown by 1 second.
So my eyes are gonna stay closed until you can, without too many adjustments explain to me a box that lacerate fills for sv that serpent sting doesn’t.
And what ever work they could do to not only add but make lacerate work, they would put that same energy into serpent sting, which is not only a dot but one that can be used at range btw.
And you can’t even use the excuse that someone has to talent into serpent sting for it to be rotational because kill shot is in the same boat and there are about 3 separate sv talents that buff and add interaction into our kit for it.
Well Lacerate is a bleed, not a poison, so it would do physical instead of nature damage. Also couldn’t be taken off with dispels, since bleeds aren’t magic. Those of us who actually want more reason to be melee would have another button to press while melee, instead of slamming our faces on mongoose.
We’d have a viable alternative build for melee instead of mongoose build.
Bloodseeker could be reworked to not be just… pointless…
Lacerate could get nodes to give us Flayed shots razors back
Having another optional DoT isn’t a bad thing. We’d have SS WFB Lacerat, which the next DoT specs have 3. (DP, SW:P, VT/Corruption, Agony, UA)
^^^^This^^^^
It would look like this.
Deadly Duo: Lacerate has a 7%/15% chance per tick to allow Kill Shot to be used on any target regardless of health.
Now that would make Kill Shot part of our actual rotation.
Why would that work over SS?
Because in a Role Playing scenario (this is a role playing game) it makes way more sense that you see your target bleeding out uncontrollably and it inspires you to attempt to fire a finishing shot targeting that excessive bleeding. The alternative is that the target is what? Sweating more? Localized swelling? Slight purple color at the affected spot? No thanks. We choose the massive arterial bleed that we put on our prey and go for the kill.
Because for me, flanking strike, explosive shot, serpent sting and fury of the eagle are also apart of the equation.
My biggest problem with your argument is that its based off the fact that more rotational abilities don’t exist when they do.
If we didn’t have those i could see your point but there are abilites in our tree that we can add to our rotation, and Fury with a 45 sec cd thats reduced by kc resets will be very rotational so i really don’t see why you behave like sv will be lacking when its only lacking when you choose to omit several abilites that function well with the kit.
It clear that sv isn’t lacking, you just want to fill an support the flayed shot playstyle that existed which i get because i enjoyed that playstyle especially during sanctum when it out performed night fae, but that, to me just means flayed shot should be added back in not necessarily in the form of lacerate.
TBH i would even accept flayed replacing fury of the eagle.
Okay Strip. Lets break down every Damage Dealing or DPS contributing ability that Survival Hunter has access to going into Dragonflight and compare it to its closest relatives going into Dragonflight . Rogues and Warriors. Why do it like this? Because you believe that as long as it does damage its part of the core rotation. Why these classes? Because they are Melee and don’t use magic.
Assassination:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Mutilate, Garrote, Rupture, Fan of Knives, Envenom, Poisoned Knife, Slice and Dice, Instant Poison, Deadly Poison,
Shiv, Shiv x2, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Crimson Tempest, Death Mark, Exsanguinate, Amplifying Poison, Sepsis, Serrated Bone Spike, Kingsbane, Indiscriminate Carnage,
TOTAL: 27
Outlaw Rogue:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Instant Poison, Pistol Shot, Dispatch, Slice and Dice, Shiv, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Blade Flurry, Between the Eyes, Adrenaline Rush, Roll the Bones, Sepsis, Ghostly Strike, Blade Rush, Killing Spree, Dread Blades, Keep it Rolling
TOTAL: 22
Subtlety:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Instant Poison, Shadowstrike, Shuriken Storm, Backstab, Rupture, Shuriken Toss, Shiv, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Black Powder, Shadow Dance x2, Gloomblade, Shadowblades, Secret Technique, Symbols of Death, Shuriken Tornado, Sepsis, Flagellation,
TOTAL: 24
Arms:
Slam, Hamstring, Whirlwind, Battleshout, Execute, Heroic Throw, Victory Rush, Impending Victory, Shattering Throw, Heroic Leap, Thunderclap, Rend, Stormbolt, Spear of Bastion, Avatar, Shockwave, Thunderous Roar, Mortal Strike, Overpower, Skullsplitter, Sweeping Strikes, Colossus Smash, Cleave, Warbreaker, Bladestorm, Skull Banner
TOTAL: 26
Fury:
Slam, Hamstring, Whirlwind, Battleshout, Execute, Heroic Throw, Victory Rush, Impending Victory, Shattering Throw, Heroic Leap, Thunderclap, Rend, Stormbolt, Spear of Bastion, Avatar, Shockwave, Thunderous Roar, Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, Rampage, Onslaught, Recklessness, Odyn’s Fury, Siege Breaker, Ravager, Skull Banner
TOTAL: 26
NOW FOR SURVIVAL:
Kill Command, Kill Shot, Hi-Explosive Trap, Scatter Shot, Steel Trap, Explosive Shot, Barrage, Serpent Sting, Stampede, Death Chakrams, Raptor Strike, Wildfire Bomb, Carve, Butchery, Mongoose Bite, Flanking Strike, Fury of the Eagle, Coordinated Assault, Spearhead
TOTAL:19
19 Strip. Survival Hunter is 3 damaging abilities away from an OUTLAW rogue. And it gets even WORSE when you account for Choice Nodes and Replacements. And you want to sit here and say that Survival has too many buttons? Too many plates to spin? Isn’t Lacking? The reality is that Survival has 7 LESS abilites that do damage than their braindead cousins that just rage and smash everything. WARRIORS HAVE MORE NUANCE THAN SURVIVAL. So yeah. We want another functional ability. One more Button that gets us to 20. And Lacerate makes sense even if you refuse to see it.
Someone put this thread in front of @Nimox.
No i believe its rotational because it easily fits in the rotation but i guess go off sis.
Nothing to actually say about the disparity between Survival and the other 5 specs listed above? No? Okay. Stay blind kid. You keep enjoying the 2 button wonder just the way it is. It’s perfect for you. Simple, nothing remotely challenging. In the meantime. Some of us are going to try and add some depth, synergy, and engagement into this spec that is so desperate for it.
I mean wit6h the playstyle i want to pick for df i have the buttons i have now for my rotation plus like 3 more so ill be fine so…
You clearly didn’t try very hard then. Arms (MS), Fury (Bloodthirst), Frost DK (Frost Strike/Obliterate), Unholy (Festering Strike/Scourge Strike), Enhancement (Storm Strike), Elemental (Earth Shock), Prot Warrior (Ignore Pain, Revenge).
Yes, I get they’re not all spenders, but they’re all the absolute core abilities for each specs rotation. The first ability should be a choice node of Raptor Strike/Mongoose bite but having to pick it up isn’t a problem.
Flanking Strike should honestly just replace Kill Command and have an extra component (make RS crits deal increased damage for X seconds, higher reset chance, just X% more damage than regular KC, etc.).
They’re rotational but generic to Hunter, meaning they have absolutely 0 benefit to Dragonflight Survival’s rotational gameplay.
Lacerate would be an ability that could have a branch (similar to Mongoose Bite) where it’ll allow talents like “Each tick of Lacerate has an X% chance to reset the duration of your Wild Fire Bomb’s DoT effect” or “Lacerating an enemy with a debuff increases your haste by x%”.
Serpent Sting can’t have these passives in the Survival tree because it’s not a Survival ability anymore, it’s a Hunter ability.
You can’t add talents to Survival that specify Serpent Sting without SS being in the Survival tree because they’d be dead talents because there’s no guarantee a Survival Hunter will have Serpent Sting; that’s the entire reason they explained the redesign to Volatile Bomb under WFI.
The extent of SS in the Survival tree is locked to two talents, one of which requires a 2 point investment to passively apply the SS debuff.
You only took into account the first portion of the sentence friend. Read it again.
Yes specs have to pay for the main spender. Survival is the only one who gives that up to replace it with another.
Everything else you said was spot on! Hopefully this helps Strip out.
One possible reason for this (not confirmed by Blizzard, mind you), is that back in Legion when Mongoose Bite was a given for SV the spec was widely panned for having gameplay that was too unapproachable and punishing and the spec saw very little play in that expansion. So when they reworked it in BFA part of their evaluation of what went wrong with Legion SV may have been that the spec needed more simple gameplay options. Making Mongoose Bite “optional” is a way to achieve that; less-experienced players can opt out of using it for more simple gameplay.
The thing that bothers me the most about SV is the complete lack of ability synergy baked into core abilities. I guess it’s kinda the same with MM not that I think about it. You only get button synergy through talents. The rotation feels like you’re playing whack-a-mole.
I will not disagree with you there. I think them stripping it down was fine. They wrapped up all the dps traps into WFB which was great. But they forgot to add in the synergy after cutting the fat.
I agree, there is absolutely no synergy in Survival core abilities as it stands. For a good example of simple game play loops but rewarding nonetheless take a look at Destruction Warlock.
Destro lock has very simple gameplay, very little plates to spin. But everything synergizes well with eachother that the excitement builds with each shard gained through incinerate, immolate and conflag that there is such a rewarding feeling when you see the Chaos Bolt screaming towards the target.
MM is kind of sparse when it comes to innate synergy but the foundation is there. It helps that it is a simple but rewarding class fantasy. You have your 2 builders and your 2 spenders and you also get the sense of enjoyment when Aimed Shot goes off and chunks the enemies health from 40 yards away. The rotational synergy is there it just isnt as shiney as others. And we cannot expect each class to have the same level of rotational synergy. I just expect that all of the classes actually have synergy in the gameplay…
Not to get too far off topic, but I’m still a sucker for the old builder/spender days of Chimaera being a keystone.
As for SV, I feel like the overall concept is already working from a disadvantaged state. They way Blizzard has tried to cram a square peg in a round hole is especially obvious when base abilities have to be changed entirely to account for melee delivery. That aside, I’ve said in a number of other threads that I still don’t understand what SV is supposed to be. I mean, yeah, melee hunter. But what does that mean? I think if we can figure out what SV is supposed to be doing, building synergies and thoughtful rotations will be much easier.