Alpha Survival Hunter Questions for the Developers

Things I would flat out ask the Developers about Survival Hunter if I had Alpha…

1.) Would there be any possible way to reimburse the talent point spent on Raptor Strike that we forfeit in gaining Mongoose Bite? Can we make it a Class Ability?

I cannot find another spec that is forced to pay for their main (only) spender and then pay again to replace that mandatory point. Which means SV has a tree that only gets 29 talent points in reality… For example. Retribution Paladins don’t even have to pay for their 3 core rotational abilities, Crusaders Strike, Judgement, Templars Verdict. Or their Execute.

2.) Can we add a talent point node that reduces the cooldown of Flanking Strike besides the proposed Frenzied Strike adjustments?
It doesn’t make sense from a game play perspective that you can only use an AoE ability to reduce the cooldown of a Single Target Ability. Reducing Flanking Strike cool down per Kill Command, or per 30 focus spent would be a good place to start.

3.) Is there a chance we can remove Barrage and replace it with Chakrams?
Or make Barrage option into Chakrams for Survival

4.) Are there any plans to add another focus spender to Survival Hunter for its core rotation? It’s a two button rotation…

For instance: BM has Cobra Shot and Kill Command and MM has Aimed Shot and Arcane Shot. Something like Lacerate would be easy to implement back into Survival Hunter. Adding some supportive talents for that new ability would fill out the sparse talent tree.

Here are some ideas that could work:

Scent of Blood: Your pets basic attacks (bite, claw, stomp, etc) do X more damage to targets suffering from your Lacerate.

Go for the Throat: Successful Kill Commands extend the duration of Lacerate by 2 second. This cannot extend Lacerate past its maximum duration.

Expose Weakness: Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite Critical hits on targets suffering from your Lacerate increase your Critical Damage done by 7%/15% for 7 seconds.

Mortal Wounds: Lacerate has an 7%/15% Chance to make the next RS or MB cost 0 focus.

5.) Are there any plans to add more defensive options for Survival Hunters specifically?

Things like (and they are reaaaally basic…):

Wilderness Training: Increases the Hunter and their Pets Stamina by 10%. Increases Agility by 10% of your Stamina

Taste for Blood: You heal for 7% of the damage you deal with Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite to targets suffering from your Lacerate. Your pet heals for 7% of the damage that Kill Command does on targets suffering from Lacerate.

Updated Mastery - Spirit Bond: You and your pet suffer up to X% less damage depending on distance between each other.

If someone with Alpha or a CM could ask those questions or just copy that into the thread I would love to see those things answered. I see good conversation between MM mains and some BM mains and Nimox is answering but SV mains have been terribly silent over the last 2 weeks with concerns.

Thanks

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I don’t know why people keep saying lacerate when it would devalue serpent sting and add button bloat to sv

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Because some people would prefer an option by which for SV to be less of a melee-ranged-hybrid hodgepodge?

Just as reasonably as one might want the ability to have a pure ranged Survival hunter, one could reasonably desire a more cohesively melee hunter as was present in Legion (albeit likely with fewer spinning plates or other bits of first-iteration clunkiness).

Yeah, Survival is the main reason I’m not too happy with Explosive Shot / Barrage being a Class node. Even if a pure Ranged survival were available, Barrage, at least, still wouldn’t thematically fit worth a damn. When accounting for SV being forcibly pushed towards at least some melee, it’s all the worse.

I don’t want to lose Barrage or Explosive Shot for other specs, or the ability to take either and Chakrams atop it, but Barrage for SV just feels… ick.

This is where I’d like to see at least something like Legion Mongoose Bite take the floor. Especially without Serpent Sting as part of the early mainstay rotation, it just looks so damn braindead/awful.

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Would you consider Explosive Shot, Barrage, Stampede, and Kill Command, part of MM’s core rotation? Lets understand what ‘Core Rotation’ means. When the spec is inherently designed around that ability being used in some way on a rotational relationship with the other abilities in that Specializations ability kit. That would mean the talents and the other abilities have interplay between them. For a close example look at Fury Warrior. Raging Blow effects Rampage, Bloodthirst, and itself. For an even closer example look at Beastmaster Hunter. Cobra Shot works hand in hand with Kill Command and Barbed Shot. Now for an opposite example, we would not see Holy Nova considered a good ability for Shadow Priests. Why not? It is a class ability right? It does cost a point same as Serpent Sting? It is because Holy Nova does not have any Specialization Synergy with the Shadow Priest Spec. There is no interplay between the specs talents nor the abilities of Shadow Priest.
Serpent Sting is no longer considered a Survival only ability. It does not interact with Raptor Strike (and therefore Mongoose Bite), Kill Command, nor Flanking Strike which is on a locked 30 second cool down so hardly rotational… The only thing Survival has with Serpent Sting is Vipers Venom, WFI, and Ranger. And already we are seeing community push back for VV being 2 points for 30%… It would take less Focus to just press Serpent Sting than it would to reach 100% chance. Its a poor talent that does not have true interplay with the spec itself. Same goes for WFI and Ranger.

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Quick Mock-up of what a Survival tree that actually offers playstyle choice might look like. (Second image.)

/imgur.com/a/6Hxqqli

Will provide further description on edit. For now, I leave the skills’ effects to your imagination.

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ttps://docs.google.com/drawings/d/12lapekCS7mq_YKhuW5MfYaTH4LDQKYqawqmreDytu8Q/edit

I did the same for the actual Survival Hunter Talent Tree.

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This does indeed look like a more complete version of the current (Shadowlands) Survival functionality and flair.

The capstone pathing seems a bit excessively broken up though, due largely to the Fury template into which it’s been placed and the thousand pokes of Fury of the Eagle not necessarily seeming thematically complementary to throwing giant bombs.

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Yes indeed, this was simply to show how much SV was missing in the tree in a 1 for 1 comparison. The total node difference and total point difference is absolutely shocking.
And yes I think it weird that FOTE is a capstone. I dont think anyone would have batted an eye if WFI was the capstone and FOTE was somewhere else up on the tree. But now we see what the devs value each ability at and that is dismal.

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How the heck can you button bloat a spec that has two abilities as its core rotation? With very few rarely uses extra buttons like medium cd ones that are optional from class tree like explosive shot or serpent sting or wildfire bomb in spec tree. The core rotation is still bombs with carve or raptor/mongoose with kill command. Adding a true bleed to our core rotation that interacts (truly interacts, not this BS like kill command) would far from bloat the spec but perhaps make it feel like a brain dead play.

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Raptor/Mongoose bite, Wildfire bomb, Serpent sting, Kill command, flanking strike and even explosive shot.

I swear yall get hooked on buzz words and forget every other spell that exists

and yes explosive shot and serpent sting still count as rotational abilities because what else are you selecting?

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And you will just mention any and every ability and claim its in our rotation.

On live i exclusively use SS if i want to pull/tag something. Even used optimally its barely 2-3% of my overall damage. Just so laughably bad its not a rotational ability.

An ability does not become rotational just because you have it. The core rotation for Hunters on live is bombs and KC. In DF it wont be much better. Aoe will be bombs and carve and then something between as filler if you lack haste. For ST you’ll just want to focus mongoose bite and then use KC for focus regen in between. Unless something gets mad overtuned (for example SS) you will lose dps to use it rotationally. Again for ST you will probably use ES or something on cd as filler.

If you think that Hunter is some awesome class with deep mechanics and high skill ceiling good for you. But it really isnt. And in DF we wont even be able to get our full current toolkit back so… Yeah

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2% is being used optimally?

The pheromone bomb rotation is bombs and KC

In df it will be much better, between being able to easily spec into Hydras Bite equaling more spread serpent sting, volatile bomb also spreading serpent sting sting, vipers venom being added into the equation and ranger buffing its damage means that serpent sting will be an even bigger source of damage for sv hunters.

Plus since it costs focus it still works with our mastery on the same level as raptor strike.

I don’t know what is going on with some sv hunters these days that are suddenly against serpent sting just because its not baseline for sv anymore when it literally fits in our rotation way easier than any other hunter spec. Yall are mad trippin.

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Did you even read my reply to you at all? You seriously are considering explosive shot and serpent sting apart of the core survival rotation?

Okay. Strip. I have an eye-opening experiment for you. I want you to take a look at the fury Warrior talent tree and the general Warrior talent tree. In the general class tree you will see that Warriors have access to the ability Rend. Now according to your stance, Rend would then be considered a fury Warrior core rotational ability. It is not too dissimilar to serpent sting. I want you to look through the fury Warrior talents and their abilities and see if you see any interplay between the fury Warrior abilities and talents. Let me know what you find.

Until then the rest of us who want to see survival Hunter more than just a two button rotation will continue to try and get the Developers to add some depth and synergy to survival Hunter. Just like all the other DPS specs have.

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I still want FS to be our generator and KC to be a spender, but id settle for the FS passive that got replaced to come back under a new name. And Lacerate would be a nice bleed button

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Id be okay with FS being our generator as long as it also gives a bit of focus to the pet too. Im less inclined to have Kill Command at all to be honest. I dont want to borrow from BM at all. I agree with much of the naysayers on that point. It is all together ridiculous that SV has to borrow a spec defining ability from BM and masquerade as if it fits into SV.
Flanking Strike Generator > Raptor Strike Spender > Lacerate Big Spender and Synergy builder.

I do like the idea of adding something like

Devilsaur Bite
Survival Hunter Ability
50 focus. Requires Melee Weapon
Instant Cast. 20 second cooldown
Leap into the air and perform a massive driving attack at your target causing 1000% AP damage.
This ability always crits if you are behind your target. Critical strikes with Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite reduce the cooldown by 1 second.

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So my eyes are gonna stay closed until you can, without too many adjustments explain to me a box that lacerate fills for sv that serpent sting doesn’t.

And what ever work they could do to not only add but make lacerate work, they would put that same energy into serpent sting, which is not only a dot but one that can be used at range btw.

And you can’t even use the excuse that someone has to talent into serpent sting for it to be rotational because kill shot is in the same boat and there are about 3 separate sv talents that buff and add interaction into our kit for it.

Well Lacerate is a bleed, not a poison, so it would do physical instead of nature damage. Also couldn’t be taken off with dispels, since bleeds aren’t magic. Those of us who actually want more reason to be melee would have another button to press while melee, instead of slamming our faces on mongoose.
We’d have a viable alternative build for melee instead of mongoose build.
Bloodseeker could be reworked to not be just… pointless…
Lacerate could get nodes to give us Flayed shots razors back
Having another optional DoT isn’t a bad thing. We’d have SS WFB Lacerat, which the next DoT specs have 3. (DP, SW:P, VT/Corruption, Agony, UA)

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  1. Nimox himself said that they want SV to be more Melee. This is Melee.
  1. Lacerate would do way more damage than SS. It costs 35 focus. Not 10. Could they change SS to be a suped up poison? Sure but they arent. Why? Because Nimox himself said they believe that SS is a Hunter Class ability not a SV only ability. As for ranged. See 1.
  1. Kill Shot is not a rotational ability. It is a situational ability that, outside of Coordinated Assault and a 20% Kill window, has no connection to the other abilities that make up SV hunter. Raptor Strike(MB), Kill Command, Bomb, Carve/Butchery. You do not use Kill Shot for 80% of the fight. How you think that is rotational is beyond me. You know what would make Kill Shot more of a rotational Ability?

^^^^This^^^^
It would look like this.

Deadly Duo: Lacerate has a 7%/15% chance per tick to allow Kill Shot to be used on any target regardless of health.

Now that would make Kill Shot part of our actual rotation.

Why would that work over SS?

Because in a Role Playing scenario (this is a role playing game) it makes way more sense that you see your target bleeding out uncontrollably and it inspires you to attempt to fire a finishing shot targeting that excessive bleeding. The alternative is that the target is what? Sweating more? Localized swelling? Slight purple color at the affected spot? No thanks. We choose the massive arterial bleed that we put on our prey and go for the kill.

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Because for me, flanking strike, explosive shot, serpent sting and fury of the eagle are also apart of the equation.

My biggest problem with your argument is that its based off the fact that more rotational abilities don’t exist when they do.

If we didn’t have those i could see your point but there are abilites in our tree that we can add to our rotation, and Fury with a 45 sec cd thats reduced by kc resets will be very rotational so i really don’t see why you behave like sv will be lacking when its only lacking when you choose to omit several abilites that function well with the kit.

It clear that sv isn’t lacking, you just want to fill an support the flayed shot playstyle that existed which i get because i enjoyed that playstyle especially during sanctum when it out performed night fae, but that, to me just means flayed shot should be added back in not necessarily in the form of lacerate.

TBH i would even accept flayed replacing fury of the eagle.

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Okay Strip. Lets break down every Damage Dealing or DPS contributing ability that Survival Hunter has access to going into Dragonflight and compare it to its closest relatives going into Dragonflight . Rogues and Warriors. Why do it like this? Because you believe that as long as it does damage its part of the core rotation. Why these classes? Because they are Melee and don’t use magic.

Assassination:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Mutilate, Garrote, Rupture, Fan of Knives, Envenom, Poisoned Knife, Slice and Dice, Instant Poison, Deadly Poison,
Shiv, Shiv x2, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Crimson Tempest, Death Mark, Exsanguinate, Amplifying Poison, Sepsis, Serrated Bone Spike, Kingsbane, Indiscriminate Carnage,
TOTAL: 27

Outlaw Rogue:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Instant Poison, Pistol Shot, Dispatch, Slice and Dice, Shiv, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Blade Flurry, Between the Eyes, Adrenaline Rush, Roll the Bones, Sepsis, Ghostly Strike, Blade Rush, Killing Spree, Dread Blades, Keep it Rolling
TOTAL: 22

Subtlety:
Sinister Strike, Eviscerate, Ambush, Instant Poison, Shadowstrike, Shuriken Storm, Backstab, Rupture, Shuriken Toss, Shiv, Marked for Death, Cold Blood, Echoing Reprimand, Shadow Dance, Black Powder, Shadow Dance x2, Gloomblade, Shadowblades, Secret Technique, Symbols of Death, Shuriken Tornado, Sepsis, Flagellation,
TOTAL: 24

Arms:
Slam, Hamstring, Whirlwind, Battleshout, Execute, Heroic Throw, Victory Rush, Impending Victory, Shattering Throw, Heroic Leap, Thunderclap, Rend, Stormbolt, Spear of Bastion, Avatar, Shockwave, Thunderous Roar, Mortal Strike, Overpower, Skullsplitter, Sweeping Strikes, Colossus Smash, Cleave, Warbreaker, Bladestorm, Skull Banner
TOTAL: 26

Fury:
Slam, Hamstring, Whirlwind, Battleshout, Execute, Heroic Throw, Victory Rush, Impending Victory, Shattering Throw, Heroic Leap, Thunderclap, Rend, Stormbolt, Spear of Bastion, Avatar, Shockwave, Thunderous Roar, Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, Rampage, Onslaught, Recklessness, Odyn’s Fury, Siege Breaker, Ravager, Skull Banner
TOTAL: 26

NOW FOR SURVIVAL:

Kill Command, Kill Shot, Hi-Explosive Trap, Scatter Shot, Steel Trap, Explosive Shot, Barrage, Serpent Sting, Stampede, Death Chakrams, Raptor Strike, Wildfire Bomb, Carve, Butchery, Mongoose Bite, Flanking Strike, Fury of the Eagle, Coordinated Assault, Spearhead

TOTAL:19

19 Strip. Survival Hunter is 3 damaging abilities away from an OUTLAW rogue. And it gets even WORSE when you account for Choice Nodes and Replacements. And you want to sit here and say that Survival has too many buttons? Too many plates to spin? Isn’t Lacking? The reality is that Survival has 7 LESS abilites that do damage than their braindead cousins that just rage and smash everything. WARRIORS HAVE MORE NUANCE THAN SURVIVAL. So yeah. We want another functional ability. One more Button that gets us to 20. And Lacerate makes sense even if you refuse to see it.

Someone put this thread in front of @Nimox.

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