Alliance, Who are you?

Lore Story Forum
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So many many things I disagree with in this thread but I I want to answer the question first. Who is the Alliance? It is an ideal.

" Using the weapons forged by their new allies, the Humans made haste to prepare for the onslaught. While Dwarven cannon were being loaded, others armed themselves with Elven steel and mail.

Now, united in arms with new allies against a common foe, Mankind stands at the shores of destiny and awaits the coming of the Tides of Darkness."

People might say “aha this is proof the humans are the stars and take too much of the limelight” and I would say that is because the humans started the Alliance and does not make the other races less valuable. If not for said dwarven cannons and elven steel the humans would all be dead! Not to mention the Alliance focused first on saving the dwarves/elvens before it even attempted to take back Stormwind.

On this note, the Tides of Darkness book pretty much explained what Lothar hoped for when all was said and done with the Horde, he wanted an Alliance that did not care where you came from. He was moved by seeing the various Alliance soldiers which came from Stormwind, Lordearon, Stromgarde and even Alterac working and treating everyone as equals!

The Alliance is not the UN. As I have said multiple times the Alliance is closer to the EU more so then the UN. The Alliance has free trade between its member nations, free movement for its citizens and even common laws(particularly with the military).

That Alliance was composed of mainly of humans, humans who had slowly festered animosity for each other. A supreme commander is not needed in the sense that most of the Alliance races are working together because they want to. Further more, even if that was the case, Stormwind’s defacto leader was the supreme commander. And as Metzen himself once told me, the high king is equal to the Supreme Commander. Hell, Turaylon has the position now.

I would argue the dwarves has remained relevant to the narrative. Moira in particularly makes multiple apperances in books and comics.

The dwarves have never cared for leadership of the Alliance and considering the Three Hammer stilll have difference, I doubt any one of them would want the other to be elevated to such a position.

Brann in particular was active in helping the Alliance exclusively. We even have an explorer’s league base that fights the nightborne and the Reliquary.

Eh, I would rather have gnome content focused more on fixing their stuff(ie getting back all of Gnomeragan) and repairing it fully.

Did you even read the some of the flavor text from BfA? Those prespectives are already present. From people who want nothing more then to stop Sylvanas to other like say Shandis who actually wants to move on and doesn’t want her mother to be consumed by her own rage.

Find me a human that is a great warlock, hunter, monk, rogue. And with Varian dead I don’t even think they have a warrior as renowned.

This has been answered before. The humans have a natural affinity for magic. Why? Who knows, maybe it was a benefit from the Curse of flesh. Like it or not, the humans are Meta wise the first mages of Warcraft(tracing their mages to Warcraft 1) and Jaina is more of an outlier then the standard. Heck, even Medivh thought she would be the best mage the humans would ever produce.

The point of the worgens as far as the Forsaken are concerned is in my opinion to prove they are BETTER then the Forsaken. That unlike the Forsaken they have managed to keep their humanity and that unlike say Sylvanas, Genn is willing to bend abit and choose the more neutral, we don’t have to have to like each other but we don’t have to kill each other either.

Then I don’t think you really know the draenei at all. The reason the dreanei are living in the Exodar is because they do have a connection to it. It is almost a living being to them. The draenei are also not trying to leave and some have literally made new homes from as far away as the Hinterlands to Ashenvale. The draenei are not running away any more.

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43

True but He also didn’t want everyone to give up their nations to serve under that banner either. He was proud of everyone working together to defeat a common enemy doesn’t mean he didn’t want to see stormwind rebuilt and his people avenged.

He was never Stormwinds defacto leader that has always been the line of wrynn. He was a commander of what remained of the Alliances armies but he still answered to Varian as he was king even when he was young.

Even though Metzen called it the same thing it doesn’t mean it came across the same. Blizzard have consistently used it as a “warchief” position within the Alliance where the high king makes decisions that affect kingdoms outside of just running the military. Hell, even the high king Anduin choose Turaylon to be the supreme commander without any discussion with any other leader. Why didn’t Anduin just elect Turaylon as High king if it was the same thing?

Because they are clearly not.

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44

No one is being asked to give up their banners. Look at say the siege of Ogrimmar, everyone still wore their own colors. Sure there are time people were the Stormwind flag(and that is to honor Lothar and promote unity(you know the guy who is considered the founder of the Alliance) but I don’t see any Dwarven guards walking around in Stormwind tabards.

Anduin at the time was De jure leader of what remained of Stormwind, Lothar was the defacto leader because Anduin being a kid cannot actually made decisions for Stormwind.

Unlike the warchief who can force anyone to fight for him at his leisure. (they literally have/had a blood oath https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Oath_of_the_Horde). Anduin and Varian is only allowed the ability to command the forces of the other races if given permission by their leader(as shown by the dwarvens witholding troops until Moira stepped in).

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45

unite under the stormwindbanner…not under the banner of an entire different state. You are so blind in your “Unity over everything”, that you can´t understand thats the most Allianceplayer choose their race to play this race, and not to play a human-sidekick.

i mean, we haven´t ever seen an “unite under dwarf banner” or unite under “nightelfbanner”

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46

So you claim but Nothing indicates that, Hell there wasn’t anything to rule considering their entire kingdom was erased and its was only a handful of survivors that were looked after by lordearon. It only became a kingdom again after the was when lothar was dead and buried.

So no he never was the defacto leader. He was the leader of the armies until stormwinds fall and then they all escaped to lordearon. Then he was elected as Supreme commander till he died. Nowhere in between any of that did he rule stormwind or its citizens.

Tides of darkness actually explains this really well and its is the only reason the leaders actually concede and let lothar lead the combined forces.

Anduin released a war criminal that Stabbed another leader in the back. He negotiated a peace with said war criminal and the rest of the Horde with out asking. He invited multiple races into the Alliance without asking other leaders either.

That seems less like a commander and more like a emperor to me.

You also haven’t answered if they are the same thing why did he elect his own supreme commander instead of giving turaylon the title “high king”.

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47

Azeroth
Leader: Regent Lord Anduin Lothar
Nation Color: Blue
Background: Before the coming of the Age of Chaos when the
Portal was first opened, the kingdom of Azeroth was the mightiest
of all Human nations. Ruled by the wise and just King Llane,
Azeroth stood as a beacon of light and truth throughout the known
world. After the First War, Azeroth and all of its lands were
devastated by the Horde. With King Llane dead, Sir Lothar
took charge of the shattered armies of Azeroth and led the
survivors across the Great Sea to the shores of Lordaeron.

So he leads BOTH survivors and its shattered army.

You know I read it as well right? Yes, the humans kings were too prideful to let another human king lead, Lothar was not a king but all intent and purposes he was the leader of what remained of Stormwind and more importantly he had Arathi blood, which actually means he does technically have a right to lead them all.

You mean the same War criminal that Tyrande herself didnt kill and let walk away? Even ignoring that Tyrande has let crimiinal out of their jail when she thought it would suit her needs(Illidan).

We literally fight for a night elven flag anytime we go to Warsong Gulch! We fight for the dwarves when we go to Alterac Valley, we fought for Gnomeragan during operation Gnomerag\an.

Again, the other races are not human sidekick anymore then Alleria or Kurdran were human side kicks back in Warcraft 2.

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48

but not with the tabbard, like in mop before, a human was never armored in a dwarf armory…but a dwarf in a human armory…and thats the reason you don´t get the point…the other races DON`T want this and even you BIG human fanboy have to accept it.

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49

You were saying? Belinda is wearing the Stormpike tabbard. A clearly dwarven tabbard.

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50

As long as the Horde get fixed before hand, 100% agree.

Otherwise it’s going to be very one sided with a new reinvigorated and more powerful Alliance with gnashing teeth and greater ambitions against an already weak, demoralized, thinned out, loser Horde. Keep in mind the Horde lost to the current incarnation of Alliance, so this new one may as well stomp them into total deletion.

It would be like Alliance players playing as the Super Mario Bros while Horde players are playing as Goombas.

Would love to see more Dwarven leadership and not the funny haha coz it’s in Scottish accent kind but a serious let’s get sh*t done type of leadership.

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51

ONE example…since over 15 Years, wow…congrats. But not an entire PATCH and everyone

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He took charge of the Soldiers, But he only led the survivors to lordearon, Never did he rule over them. As soon as they landed in Lordearon they became refugees in the care of Lordearon, Varian became a ward of Terenas but he was still their king. If Varian had told him to lead them somewhere else he would have had to listen to his king.

You do realise that her husband was dying infront of her. She kinda had more pressing concerns at the time. Regardin Illidan, she wasn’t part of the Alliance and leader of the Night elves that was her right to release Illidan. Even then there were parties that were so angry about it they tried to come after her for it.

I would love for some Night elves to come after Anduin and try kill him for releasing the war criminal. Be perfectly ironic for Maeiv to do it again actually. Actually show some damn consequences for his actions for once.

Exactly, we need more of that back in the Alliance to make it more interesting. I want characters to act more like actual prideful leaders would instead of all following Anduin like zombies. I want Genn to challenge Anduin and demand that he actually go after the Horde rather than acting like a whipped dog.

Still Dodging the question about Anduin electing Turaylon Supreme commander then.

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53

Regent Lord[4][5] of Stormwind

You do realize that Bolvar had the same title as him? And yes, Bolvar was as much consider a leader of Stormwind as Lothar.

It would have taken a second to crush Saurfang. Also, we know for a fact she let him go because she thought he would have kept some semblance of control over the Horde if/had her people become prisoners of war.

I also mentioned Illidan in order to point out that the person who control said prison, makes the rules as to what happens to said prisoner.

And people say I move the goal post. Look, if it has not happened since it is because the dwarves have not been leading any assault in particular for their races(also several humans were wearing the tabard, not just her). They do it for the Alliance and using Alliance heraldry. I’d also point out the Alliance uses Gryphon for its airships. A clear Wildhammer heraldry that is now part of the normally Alliance banners/heraldry.

No I am. Look, Anduin made him leader of forces HE CONTROLS. The various Alliance nations only allow their face to be lead by a high king/supreme commanderIF THEY WANT IT. If a race had any particular objections to Turaylon they could withdraw their support at any time. In fact, I am fairly certain even if Turaylon were to suddenly order the night elves to send their forces, none/few of them would response.

That is the difference between high king.supreme commander and the Warchief. The supreme commander can only lead the forces given to him by the grace of the various respective nations.

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Yet when did he rule stormwind Zerde? Just cause he had the title didn’t make him its leader at any point. Even Bolvar was still beholden to Anduin when he ruled, he even had to share that responsibility with lady prestor.

So you know how long it would take Tyrande to take down Saurfang? I mean based on how pathetic powered up Nightwarrior version is I doubt it would be that easy without all that power. She didn’t want to let him go but she also needed to get her husband to safety.

Again this is terrible writing by the writers but sadly its what we got. She should have put an arrow between his eyes and taken Malf to safety but they wanted to have the sad orc montage with anduin.

So he has the same powers has a supreme commander and can hand all the forces of the Alliance to another supreme commander yet still keep the Title of HIGH KING. Oh and if any one else doesn’t like it they can up and leave the alliance, Boy that sounds like such a swell democracy. All the while claiming its a military position that an inept teenage boy should have even though they’re are multitudes of more experienced veterans all around the alliance.

Again this is everything wrong with the story and while I get you love your little blonde boys. The whole High king nonsense has ruined the Alliance for alot of us and we want it gone.

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I mean, it isn’t going to happen for gameplay reasons. But, if I wanted to justify it on story grounds, I am sure that I could spin a story about the Alliance turning isolationist and inward, cutting off all ties with the Horde, focusing on internal issues.

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The challenge with the “High King” title has always been in the choice of title and the ham-handed way that Blizzard introduced it back in MoP.

First, why did they use “High King” if it was intended to only be a military position when the “Supreme Commander” position already existed and had history? It created confusion and made it look like the title was intended to have political/diplomatic authority. And frankly, Blizzard has not helped the situation by having Varian/Anduin seemingly acting in unilateral fashion on political/diplomatic matters in flashy ways and then only quietly nodding to the alleged independence of Alliance member nations. e.g. Azshara. If you never did the raid and/or never bothered to talk to Tyrande after the cut scene, you wouldn’t know that Varian “consulted” her before agreeing to relinquish Night Elf claims to Azshara.

Second, the introduction of the “High King” position was completely borked up. Why did the Alliance need it? Never explained or dealt with in the game. Why was it Varian? Never explained or dealt with in the game. Why is it seemingly hereditary, i.e. passed on to Anduin without so much as the pretense of a vote? Never explained or dealt with in the game. The so-called “Trials of the High King” amounted to nothing more than a pair of scenarios with no lead in, no explanation and frankly in the case of “A Little Patience” pretty damn dumb in their portrayal of Tyrande and of the Orcs.

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57

They have definitely got to dial back on the humans, is annoying that they are excellent at everything and that everyone needs them.

The whole faction has a huge identity crisis. It’s as if no one has any identity or personality outside of what’s dictated by Anduin. They definitely need a darker and more savage side of the faction and the Night Elves fit that perfectly. The elves can absolutely keep their closeness to nature and still be extremely capable warriors. Maybe the reason those lands like Ashenvale, Hyjal, and even Teldrassil remained so pristine is not only because they took care of them, but because the elves were completely merciless to those that dared to step foot into their lands. One of Tyrande’s descriptions was that when her enemies would turn to retreat she would riddle their backs with arrows.

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The EU doesn’t default leadership to only one nation. It behaves more like a federation.

He didn’t elect him, he delegated his military responsibilities (you know, the entire reason Varian got the title invented in the first place) to Turalyon. So, what purpose is High King for if it’s not being a military leader? Oh yes, to elevate Anduin above other Alliance leaders and give Blizzard an excuse to focus the majority of the Alliance narrative on him.

Anduin behaved more like a King or Emperor appointing advisors in Shadows Rising than an elected official.

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59

Ignore the blood elf warlock behind the curtain!

(It’s obviously Baalsamael)

Anywho, blatantly obviously missed opportunities and stuff I’d like to see, or narrative mistakes:

  • Connecting the Kul Tiran Thornspeakers/Drust with the Harvest Witches, given Kul Tiras human settlers were a Gilnean Diaspora
  • Likewise, connecting Harvest Witches with the Shadowlands a bit
  • Walking back the Gilnean Heritage Armor nonsense of “worgen aren’t necessary, no more worgen, I reject the worgen curse”
  • Likewise, would also make the worgen curse genetic, so worgen kids inherit the curse, but maybe it’s “triggered” by something, idk
  • Relatedly: Jaina still says “By the Light” during Shadowlands a few times; really wish she’d start saying “By the Tidemother” as a gesture of her fully and actively re-integrating into Kul Tiran society
  • The Moonguard that survived somehow should be narratively re-integrated back into Night Elf society
  • The “High King” role being authoritarian is actually useful to develop internal conflict to the Alliance and should be kept, but that internal conflict meaningfully developed
  • Alternatively, to reaffirm the democratic nature, have the majority of the Alliance leadership vote to idk, reclaim Gilneas, and force Anduin to support the endeavor
  • Have Lucille Waycrest become a Thornspeaker and a student of Ulfar, and have the Tidesages reform so the Lord Stormsong position (Brannon Stormsong) is tied to but separate from the “head” of the Tidesages (Tidepope? Stormsage? Tidebishop? ie Brother Pike), and keep all four characters active as Jaina’s advisors
  • Reveal the Pirates liked operating under one leader, have Jaina instate Flynn Fairwind as the new Lord Ashvane who is secretly the Pirate King, which keeps Kul Tiras safe from Pirates
  • Make the Defias Brotherhood relevant again; have Vanessa and Flynn engage with each other
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Prestor was a council that was attempting to wrest power from Bolvar(so while she does have influence she was not considered the leader of Stormwind. But Bolvar was the regent(a person appointed to administer a country because the monarch is a minor or is absent or incapacitated). So again, Anduin was de jure leader, Bolvar was defacto and had the job actually doing most administerative work.

Saurfang was on the ground no even fighting back. We even see a picture of her about to strike him.

Because Varian/Anduin were kings. Supreme commander does sound like a downgrade to king. Not to mention it just sounds cooler.

We had an entire scenario(Blood in the Snow) showing how Varian could not act unilaterally and actually needed support. As for the Tyrande thing, I assume it that they couldnt fit a good gameplay reason for why we players would be evesdropping on a conversation(not to mention Blizzard just doesnt seem to want to talk about the fate of Ashenvale because it is their go to reason for starting wars).

You do realize this was never an ideal transfer of power and was a back up in case he could not act as high king(like being captured by Sylvanas?).

I never said leave. I said dont support. In the same way the dwarves were not willing to send Forces to Varian back in MoP.

Except most of the other Alliance were either new(Night elves, draenei) not interested in leading it(gnomes/dwarves) and the Stormwind humans were the ones always trying to build and keep connections between the races(as a port city it is the literal gateway for Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms trade).

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Why does Varian/Anduin being Kings mean that the title had to be “High King”?

Monarchs can hold positions/titles other than King/Queen. e.g. Elizabeth II, in full Elizabeth Alexandra Mary, officially Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other realms and territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

I take your point about Blood in the Snow - but again, that was a lot of Lorewalker Cho telling you stuff about Varian needing troops from the Dwarves and not too much showing. It’s Blizzard’s perennial problem with the Alliance, they leave us to assume, project, insert, deduce what the heck is going on with things like the High King or Ashenvale, because they can’t be bothered to properly deal with them in the game.

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