which is fine, v Nat Turner, but like
*gestures to everything that followed, including the dev’s framing Orcish-ness as a fundamental problem *
8 Likes
Well yeah, it is pretty obvious everything but the early writing of the Horde Warcraft 3 created has been very confused with the intended themes.
I think some people are disgustingly negligent with what messages their work sends.
8 Likes
My patience will increase 200% if Golden/someone were to come out and say “We mispoke, and we apologize. Garrosh was bad because of his personal choices as an individual, albeit due to generational trauma, not because he was the Orc-iest Orc to have ever Orc’d as we previously stated”
5 Likes
I got into Shadowlands because I wanted to take a look at what Ion’s “we’re going to listen to the feedback” worth. Even when their approach with covenants, conduit energy, and a bunch of other things totally flopped, his last comment on the topic was “I would still do it”.
I am not sure the devs would admit that their story direction is not suitable for the audience they have.
Even when they talk about the mistakes (like Danuser’s T&E interview), it’s presented as “we could’ve shown something better”, as if a few sprinkles over an odd substance would turn it into something amazing.
I can imagine some devs trying to talk their way out of it like “just wait till 9.2, it’ll totally fix everything”.
But I do not think their hubris will allow them to recognize that sometimes however they like something, in a commercial product it has to go.
gl hf
3 Likes
Garrosh’s problem wasn’t that he was an Orc. It was his own self-perception of what being an Orc meant TO HIM. It was his own ideas of what being an Orc was that led him down his path.
And I’m certain that was the intended message of the Devs in that statement.
They just need a better spokesman.
2 Likes
No Golden literally said:
She attributed his problem to his being the Orciest Orc.
Would this be said of any other race?
If Anduin became the most humany human would that lead to “bad things”?
8 Likes
I think blizz also said, that in EVERY single time line, except the main one, Garrrosh was the best Orc who ever did orc things.
Nah just that he was a hero that led the Horde to prosperity, and that was an in-game comment by Kairoz iirc.
Not a dev statement.
1 Like
Oh. Fair enough. Appreciate the clarification as always 
IMO the idea that 1 character can represent the entire nation is not a good thing. Like, even in the town I live in currently there are great people and some rather 
too.
gl hf
Less about being a token-proxy imo, it’s more the fact to Golden, Garrosh was “unapologetically Orcish” and that “leads to bad things”
So it’s more if Anduin was “unapologetically Human”, would that also lead to bad things? Probably not.
If Moira was unapologetically dwarvish, would that lead to bad things? Probably not.
If Mekkatorque was unapologietically gnomish, would that lead to bad things? Nah. (but, maybe, given the mechagnomes)
If Gazlowe was unapologetically goblinish? If Lorthemar was unapologetically Thalassian? Would these lead to bad things?
Hmm.
15 Likes
Like I said, they need better Spokesmen.
Because that’s literally the opposite of how he’s portrayed in the Books.
It’s stated constantly on these forums…
Yeah, I guess the idea that some races are inherently awful is a take that does not fit the W3 story at all, at least as I remember it.
But still, I personally think that the other are not good either. When the entire race, especially when we talk about longer living ones, are portrayed as if there is so little personality that 1 character can be enough to represent them, it’s a road to failure by itself, even if it does not look too bad on a surface.
Or so it seems to me.
gl hf
9 Likes
Well, there are some races in game that are portrayed that way. The Centaur are generally accepted as born evil…
They’re not, of course but in Game they are seen that way.
I remember being able to be friendly with a few tribes. In classic it unlocked some crafting recipes.
And had some quests like
I need no home to know I still have a place in this world, . The tribes will see… all of them. They fight amongst one another, and for what? Scraps left over by vultures… lands infested by the Legion… bah!
The centaur should be proud of their heritage–it is just as noble as any Night elf’s or orc’s–it is time we started acting like it!
© https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Centaur_Pariah
It’s removed from the game, but idk what took its place.
gl hf
3 Likes
Indeed, although it involved killing the OTHER “evil” Tribes to do so.
So the “Evil” tribe was whichever was the Tribe you’re fighting for deems as more evil.
Eitherway, they’re severely underdeveloped as a race and deserve more equal representation in lore.
Yeah, I loved that NPC. Wish they did more with them.
1 Like
I’m sympathetic to a point there, as with a project this big anythings going to be a witch’s brew of script notes and corporate style guides.
But in addition to being underwhelming, it also fails to be just basically coherent. How many huge subplots in BFA got straight up abandoned midway through? We never addressed the space elevator sized sword sticking out of the damn planet. I’ve no idea what happened to all that Azerite.
Like I’m very confident the Scourge coming back and running wild through at least Lakeshire is never going to come up again. Teldrassil really hasn’t and I’m not sure WTF the 4th War was even needed for if the Jailor is getting galaxy numbers of souls every day.
The only people I know who think the story is okay are the people who pay the least attention to it. And they don’t love it they just think it’s fine. This can only be enjoyed as something you have playing in the background while you half pay attention to it.
12 Likes
I mean yes a big article of Muh Blizzard Diversity that doesn’t say the word race once is uh
Problematique And Cringe™
3 Likes
I’m sure it’s nothing nefarious. CIA higher-ups being involved in our entertainment is fine. A game targeted at a layman audience that lies about American Cold War crimes and pins the blame on other countries is just some harmless historical fiction.
This is fine.
6 Likes
I think when understanding the mistake Blizz has made concerning the Horde is largely in how they structured it politically without properly distancing it from their past. After all, the Orcish Horde was MADE to commit genocide and conquer the enemies of the Legion. It is an organization utterly conceived of for evil purpose.
Thrall came in, after being raised(strangely) by humans, and learning of the Orcs largely through other means. He talks to some ageing evil Orcs that spin some BS about Honor and this and that, and obviously buys it. He then goes on to take up the reins of leadership of the Horde as Warchief.
Just think about that for a minute, and what the implications are. Of course it would end in disaster! All the institutions of a demon-wrought army being continued with the delusion of ‘honor’ and crap. The Horde has been doomed from the beginning to be the bad guys. And that is due to the fact that they are unchangeable.
You can’t change the fundamental aspects of the Horde anymore than you can change the fundamental aspects of the Alliance. The creators are unlikely to stand for it, and the fans are really unlikely to stand for it. The Alliance was created as the good guys no matter how many shades of gray you throw at it, no matter how many times you bring up Arthas and Garithos or other crap.
Individuals may be corrupted, or turn evil, but the institution itself will remain ‘the good guys’. Same but opposite with the Horde. The Horde was created as the bad guys, and no amount of good individual characters, or leaders, can change the fundamentals of the institution.
You want a good guy Horde? Then you can’t have the Horde anymore. Thrall’s Horde was not good, they were not good guys. They were bad guys who had a leader who was delusional and idealistic. The fact that his Horde ended up siding with Azeroth is simply a matter of convenience and practicality.
Wolverine was a good guy in large part, the Horde has never been good. If you want Wolverine look elsewhere. All else is delusion on your part.
1 Like