yeah sure, and yet you say sylvanas will have a raid in shadowlands garrosh only got a quest lol
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Uhh… I kinda never said that explicitly.
Also, your attempt to get the upper hand by proxy of “lul EXACTLY 100% SAME” strat is a fail by default. Especially when done with honesty.
We both know you aren´t honest enough to actually READ AND UNDERSTAND my point Katiera. So, stop hurting your brain over something you evidently can´t and won´t comprehend and leave it at that, kk?
Don´t waste your valious trolling time with me, I´m sure you have juicier trolling to make in other topics.
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your words not mine
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If seeing a castle in this fantasy game “breaks the camel’s back” for you, that’s your issue, not “the worldbuilding”.
Doubt.
- That “castle in fantasy game” strawman is silly and reductive.
- The fact that the Alliance takes 2nd place as far as marketing, narrative focus, or general spotlight makes it shoddily built.
- The fact that the Alliance has been in stasis for 12 years makes it shoddily built.
The only way the Alliance has any credence is through terribly OP, neutral characters that litter the main narrative. Otherwise the faction is as generic, forgettable and bland as it comes (due to the inane focus on SW).
So yeah, try again with a real argument.
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How dare you remind me he exists.
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So yeah, try again with a real argument
I did
You chose to ignore it for some strawman nonsense
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I mean as soon as we get to blow up one of your cities, turn a few of your towns into ash and maybe have a crater in the middle of Ogrimmar for two expansions or so, sure go and make Tyrande beg or something. Don’t play this double standard with me Syriyna. Also, we all know this supposed double standard has a point, if both faction were mirror to each other we might as well not have factions as all(a sentiment I actually agree with Blizzard on).
The agenda was survival against the Legion. Also, it is not like the Sunreaver gave any guarantees they wouldn’t end up not betraying Dalaran, oh right, another Sunreaver went and betrayed Dalaran and then Aethas covered it up.
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Lying isn’t a good look on you. No one knew what Sylvanas was going to do, except for Sylvanas. Not even Nathanos knew.
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Deal and while we are at it you can go several expansions without a full Leader roster and have your faction leader be the villain of the expansion twice.
My point is that Horde players are assumed to be happy being buddy buddy with Alliance characters and factions or need to prove themselves to them while Alliance players are the ones who the NPCS have to prove the worth in helping them.
If the Horde’s future warchief has to beg to get help from Alliance players then Tyrande certainly should considering how much of a rude witch she is. Even her final comments to Horde players when the Tears of Elune is recovered is frankly condescending. I would be happy to see a couple of cities blown up by the Alliance (assuming it was in the same context as it was with the Horde as the Alliance as unjustified aggressors) if it meant I the Horde leadership wasn’t in such a pathetic and humiliated state.
The Sunreavers had no political or administrative power in Dalaran. Legion Dalaran was an entirely one sided power arrangement. As for survival, I am not 100% sure the Horde is so desperate that it HAD to work out of Dalaran. The Horde has set up it’s own base of operations before and frankly clearly had the resources to with what we see in Stormheim. Blizzard didn’t even bother to address any concerns the Horde might have had and just assumed the Horde would be thrilled to come crawling back.
Oh and there was one Sunreaver who betrayed Dalaran and considering one of the Six was under the control of the Legion for a time and the Legion had many agents in Dalaran, I don’t think calling that out would very much be a case of throwing stones in glass houses. Plus it was the Kirin Tor themselves that covered it up, not Aethas.
It doesn’t change the fact that generally the Alliance is given far more reason to justify why they have to work with people they don’t want to work with or might have bad history with while the Horde seems to be assumed to be ok with it regardless. The Horde didn’t even have representation in Dalaran. We were entirely at the whims of a group which had violently cracked down on our people before and clearly had a rather flexible view on what the rights of Horde citizens were.
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Maybe because most of your leaders(or at least 3 of them) were villainous? And that has always been partial because the Horde was always a dark of the two factions.
Yes because being told we were unwelcomed by Lother’mar goons when we were fighting the amani was certainly something the Alliance enjoyed. Luckly Haldron talked back against him.
Your future Horde warchief(at the time anyway) threatened to give us and our dead to Slyvanas, he deserved to bite his tongue
Because Dalaran was where everyone was concentrating and they knew/could help people get their legendary weapons. Not to mention they had to supplies and general manpower to lead the war.
It was Aethas doing it on behalf of the Council of Six, although I dont think we ever knew how much the actual council knew about said incident. And the difference is he was being possessed by a demon. That Sunreaver betayed Dalaran of their own volition!
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After she did, everyone defended her at lordaeron and you cannot change that fact no matter what you said, the entire horde supported her genocide.
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You’re saying this is a black and white fallacy: They defended her because they agree with her, or they wouldn’t have defended her.
But they were defending the Horde’s people in the Horde’s lands.
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Yeah, I hate when people do that. Garrosh had a ton of people fight in his war that were basically dragged into it, same as Sylvanas. Baine, her, and Vol’jin opposed the war after the Cataclysm. But Garrosh would have crushed any race who opposed his effort (he even implies this through veiled threats when leaders voiced complaints).
The same was true in the last war. Some in the Horde supported the Burning and the war. However, some supported it because they backed the Dark Lady no matter what, some felt an obligation to defend a besieged ally, some were defending their home at Lordaeron, and others were dragged into the war because Sylvanas, much like Garrosh before her, demanded loyalty and was quick to throw out treason charges.
The Horde didn’t just support the Burning. The war is a little more complex than that.
Edit: Plus, the Burning ensured that the Alliance was coming for war. Some likely banded together out of self-preservation.
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Yea, that was a major failing of the story- Blizz can TELL us that the Horde didn’t support Sylvy’s more heinous actions, but aside from Saurfang and later Baine* the game doesn’t SHOW any discontent, making it easy to paint them all as “I am just lovin’ the smell of roasted nelf children!”
*and The Burning isn’t even what’s shown to set Baine off!
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Pretty much this.
From our perspective, it’s easy to say every horde member should have been appalled by the Burning, and I think many were. Nobody knew it would happen until it was too late, and then it was “us or them”.
Let’s not forget we’re not talking about 21st century people here. Most of them have been through similarly bad things and in the end, the alliance ( of which the Night Elves are part ) is still the enemy.
That’s not to say horde members do not have their own moral compass, they do, and there’s certainly nothing right with burning civilians, but can they really be expected to risk their lives, the lives of their families for standing up against their warchief?
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely do blame the leaders for not acting sooner. But the common foot soldier in wow on both sides follows orders or gets executed on the spot. Plus, they would justifiably expect brutal retaliation if the war was lost.
In this respect, Lor’themar’s statement that Sylvanas has the “support of the people” always struck me as very strange. It’s not like the “people” have much of a choice on what they do or who they follow into war.
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I know the conversation has kind of moved on from this, but let’s recall his main is a human paladin (he said it both on twitter and on that documentary they made a few years ago).
Metzen loves both sides and I really don’t think anyone can make a reasonable argument otherwise.
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I agree he loves both sides. But I think he loves a heroic image of the alliance that doesn’t mesh with the fandom. Especially when the faction war is involved.
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I think it meshes just fine just the grass is always greener every one thinks the other side has the better story.
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It doesn’t mesh with some of the Alliance fandom, sure. But there are other Alliance fans who don’t want the Alliance to do darker stuff. Just like how some of the Horde fandom really do want to be straight up bad guys and don’t want the noble savage angle.
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So they want the Alliance to be a morally basic paragon white faction? Sounds like some boring children’s show and even they manage more complex morality than that.
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