Name one major battle since the Siege of Lordearon that the Horde won with their own strength. The horde has even had its identity as a faction and what it is supposed to stand for going to pot. This has basically been an expansion of the Horde being the villain and losing every major fight, even against NPCs. The Horde fails to stop Zul’s forces in every leveling zone. The entire point of the Horde war campaign is rendered pointless by the time Dazar’Alor happens. We get Zandalar, but only after it has squat to actually off to the Horde. Talanji even asks if the Horde will abandon Zandalar now it has nothing to offer the Horde. At least the Alliance got to keep a healthy Kul Tiras and it’s fleet.
You need to stop pretending that somehow the Horde’s situation is much better. You have a serious case of grass is greener syndrome.
The Horde successfully kill an entire alliance army that was a distraction, Then push the alliance out of the City, Then the Zandalari then join the horde.
Then the Horde manage to lure the entire alliance navy out to sea into a trap set by your warchief and destroy it.
You do realize the Alliance questing isn’t much better with Kultirias being invaded by pirates and the horde twice. The City basically suffers just as much as Drazalor.
If we actually blew up any of your cities then I might think the Alliance might be on par. Ultimately anything that doesn’t end up as phased into the game might as well not have happen.
Problem lies in whenever the Alliance takes a Hit Blizzard are more than happy to phase the zone to show it destroyed. Take for example Kultiras is sieged by pirates and the blew up the sea gate. That whole zone is phased to show that destruction. The Blood trolls and Alliance Siege of Drazalor and your little golden wheel stops spinning…
The Horde Blow up Theramore its phased into a crater, The alliance siege Orgimmar and nothing changes.
The Horde attacks Ashenvale All alliance forces are killed and phased to show killed off and replaced by Horde Soldiers. The Alliance attacks Silverpine, nothing changes.
The ‘entire alliance army’ is a small force intended to draw the Horde away. The very fact it succeeded in doing this means the Horde lost the encounter. The Horde was completely fooled and all it gained from it was a few dead soldiers that probably didn’t really make up for its losses in Nazmir anyway.
The Alliance aren’t pushed out. They are already retreating. The Alliance never intended to occupy the city, only remove it as an asset for the Horde in the war which they did. They destroyed its navy, rendering its biggest asset gone, and devastated its forces. Horde forces were chasing the Alliance ones to claim revenge for the attack and in this they completely failed. Both Geblin and Jaina gets out alive, with Jaina so mildly wounded that she is up and about directly afterward. Geblin will be back as of the Mechagnome allied quest.
As for the second case, we didn’t win that with our own strength. The Naga killed the Alliance, not the Horde. My understanding is the Kul Tiran fleet wasn’t wiped out.
The Alliance succeed in stopping the Hearthbane coven in Duskvar. They succeed in stopping the corrupted Tidesages in Stormsong and break the attacking Horde forces. Ashvane is outright defeated twice with relatively little loss to the city and its people. The Alliance win in every situation. They stop Ashvane’s plans completely. They stop the Horde completely, driving them out both times.
The Alliance war campaign is a success. The Alliance efforts in Kul Tiras are a success. They win both Warfronts. The Alliance pretty much comes out victorious in every case. Yeah, there is a cost but they still win.
Anyway isn’t your claim that at least if you were evil you would be winning? If Dazar’Alor was Boralus instead with the same results only reversed, would you see it as a great Alliance victory with the Kul Tiran fleet at the bottom of the harbour? Horde get Villianized and still lose. The only difference is that you would lose and be made to feel bad about it.
Echoing what others have said, both the Alliance and Horde could do with some building up of places and people, and I think this could be done without having to directly involve the opposing faction. I think this could also be a way to further involve the allied races in their respective factions, by having them assist in the rebuilding. For example, the Kul Tirans could help the Alliance upgrade their port infrastructure, and perhaps assist in retaking and fixing up Gilneas. Do the same for Gnomeregan, and have the Mechagnomes help out as a show of solidarity. In theory both factions should have quite a bit more technology and knowledge available to them than they did in Vanilla, so at least show some of it off in the infrastructure, or reference it in stories if it can’t be shown in game. Overall, show more interaction between the major lore characters where it makes sense to do so, and use that to further develop them. Since Bolvar is evidently going to be a major player in the near future, spend some time acknowledging that on the Alliance side, since that’s where his history is. The Horde doesn’t have that history with him, so Horde players don’t need to have that, but there’s some good story potential on the Alliance side there. Also, I’d like it if we checked in with the major faction characters every now and then just to see what they’re up to, even if it’s only for a small quest here and there, so that they don’t just disappear for entire expansions.
As for the faction war resolution, make some reference to the leadership of both sides awkwardly trying to sort out something that de-escalates tension while preventing further major conflict, at least in the short term (or not, if that’s what fits the character). It doesn’t have to be a major plot in the foreground of the storytelling, but I think just having the characters acknowledge that it’s a mess and not easy would help ease the feeling of the conflict not being taken seriously. I doubt this would be a major focus in Shadowlands due to the chaos happening there, but not completely forgetting about it could be used to enrich the storytelling. Figuring out the details of what the Alliance wants versus what the Horde is able to accommodate, and leaning into the individual opinions of the various involved characters, could make for some nice background drama. Also, don’t rush this, take some time with it. The war was long and messy; the resolution to it shouldn’t be neatly wrapped up with a bow immediately.
Kul’tiras would have joined the Alliance, We would have put Gallywix on ice and probably injured Nathanos. At the cost of what Katherine proudmore. Oh and Baine will decide to stop the Horde pressing the advantage so the alliance can mourne meaning no damage to the city. Sure that would be a win.
I mean the Horde would have to lose the fleet to some random plot hole next patch so what does it matter about the fleet. (heh just realised that is what blizzard did with the Alliance fleet, dropped the fleet in a hole)
Pretty lame if everyone just retakes everything they lost. Nothing actually changing hands and no actual effects of the war being seen. Hopefully at the very least Alliance won Stromgarde & Gilneas are shown.
Main problem lies in that blizzard loves beating the Alliance down and showing it in game to demonstrate how brutal this bad guy is, whether it be the Horde of the next big bad. They Love to phase our towns and cities as craters to reflect this so its felt in game.
Though they never give anything back to the Alliance in game, they never show is rebuilding or taking back our lands through Phased content. Sure they can tell us we won the Warfronts however unless its shown in game what does that even mean? Essentially nothing because like with Ashenvale they forget they were supposed to have the Alliance in control of those zones.
Well if that is your idea of winning your welcome to it. Considering Jaina didn’t have so much as a limp and succeed in her goal before porting out, I am sure the paper cut you gave Nathanos in exchange for completely failing to take your revenge for the attack on Boralus would certainly make you happy and feel victorious.
I am also pretty sure that 5 Kul Tiran ships isn’t the entire Kul Tiran fleet.
Now this I agree with and is a very valid gripe for Alliance players to have. I have said before that Horde are never given a good reason to want to fight and Alliance never get the satisfaction of a pay off.
I like the idea of both factions expanding and taking new zones. I’ve always thought a Horde dominated Tanaris would be cool to see. IT should be an extension of the Zandalari Empire with Zul’Farrak rebuilt as a proper troll city/hub. When it comes to expansion I wouldn’t even mind seeing both factions conquer 3rd party groups. It could set up new stories/conflicts for both factions outside of their A v H war.
When it comes to Silverpine it would be so cool to see Worgen/Gilnean settlers resettling that region. There’d be so much you could do with an Alliance Hillsbrad as well. Southshore and the surrounding area could be colonies of Stromgarde.
It’s not so much the Alliance ‘let’ them get off the hook, but moreso didn’t have the position to really do anything about it. Anduin said that the Alliance, with all that it has to bare, can mobilize to assault a capitol, win or lose. That is insanely tiny for a mobile army and the consequences, win or lose, are high, with some rebels thrown in the mix. That both sides are willing to enter an armistice and discuss the prospect of peace is about as good as it’s going to get in a war that costed the world’s two greatest powers just about everything when they threw it at each other.
On the subject at hand, I think the Alliance has plenty of room to develop. They have the Council of Three Hammers plot that they’ve done nothing with. They have what is supposedly Hyjal as a territory that is joining faction binds. The Gnomes still haven’t taken back Gnomergan!
The human kingdoms have also taken some serious beatings (Gilneas, Stromgarde, Arathi, Kul Tiras) throughout their history and while Stormwind’s fared a little better in recent time, the other kingdoms could stand to grow.
They have a lot of stories to work with. They just don’t.
Really; there isn’t. the Horde has now established as an entity that can exist on its own accord. Where every race is eager to act on their own objectives and desires. Every Horde member feels engaged and eager to explore the world; while also providing a unique view.
The Alliance however? They have nothing unique to show. No new attitude nor outlook that isn’t beaten to death by another race. Every new Alliance race has nothing unique to offer to the world. Their Allied races are all based on an existing race who has no different objective than a base race as is.
The Alliance also is so badly wounded by the Horde; they exist purely to be punching bags or reactionary forces to the Horde’s efforts. What goals -do- they have that isn’t already overtaken by a neutral effort? Cenarion Circle? Argent Crusade? Dalaran? Many of the core values of the Alliance that could divert their attention is taken away for neutral forces to shine.
What does the Alliance value anymore? What purpose do they serve? Fodder to be new neutral figures?
Technically he did. From an extreme far back perspective, everything he did during the war was to ensure two main things: A) The Alliance survives and B) The Horde also survives.
Because Anduin is a good little egg who wants everyone to have a happy ending (except for those he believes no longer deserve it, such as Sylvanas). It was clear from the jump his goal was not to dismantle the Horde but stop the fighting and get some sort of lasting peace going, which he goes on and on about how “That’s worth fighting for.”
Tangent out of the way, now I feel it’s possible to have an Alliance storyline be interesting that does not involve the Horde, but also get this, does not involve the Alliance descending into a civil war of some sort like the Horde did.
Let’s say something like while cleaning up Arathi to make it usable again the Syndicate shows up and Stromgarde calls for the rest of the Alliances’ aid. Stormwind and Ironforge answer the call, but Gilneas and the Kaldorei refuse, stating that Stromgarde could fend for themselves.
Stromgarde now ain’t so inclined to help something boiling up in Kalimdor with the night elves and let’s them know it.
Something like that, where the various factions are still part of the faction but start making it very clear that they are looking out for number 1 and that starts to but a strain on the whole. Not full blown civil war mind you, but cracks in the monolith start to show.
My understanding is that Azshara cut a deal with Sylvanas. All Sylvanas did was set the lure. Azshara was the one who actually had the tidestone used. Either way it is hardly a display of Horde capability and strength as it is a third party which actually does the work. At least with the Abyssal Scepter it was the Alliance using it to supplement their own strategy, and they acquired it and used it themselves. That victory was still earned through Alliance capability, tactics and strength of arms.
The Alliance earned their own victory. Someone else had to do the work for the Horde.
this is an interesting point, even in what the alliance is supposed to shine, such as some factions like the kirin tor and the cenarion circle, it gets stolen so the horde is allowed to participate.
the kirin tor,the cenarion circle, the silver hand,ect it all become horde-friendly scenarios. so what happened to alliance aesthetics? all becomes neutral?
and people have the audacity to call legion an alliance expansion.
maybe but bear in mind that in this scenario we would never touch nathanos or galliwix again. because i don’t think that either gelbin or jaina are going to die…at least not at the hands of the other faction.
I’m starting to realize that the Alliance Playerbase has some serious issues with the Horde Faction existing at all. It really does feel like some time that the expectation is that WoW is their game, and that the Horde playerbase should just be lucky we get to play in it at all. Its not like we really care about the story after all, otherwise we’d be playing the “Real Heroes” of Azeroth. We should just be satisfied getting to mechanically play the game.
The best example of this is the outright insane level of pettyness that was Legion. I’ve seen so many Alliance players complaining about how the Horde “stole” Alliance themes, characters, and Dalaran in that expansion; because of our inclusion in it. How we’re diluting “everything Alliance”, with that needed “neutrality”. However, with the exception of Liadrin in Surumar, the entire Horde could have been written out of the Legion story and you would have barely have had to change a thing. This means that we weren’t “stealing” or “diluting” anything, but rather … we were haphazardly tacked on to a story that was not naturally inclusive for our Faction. But, its still our fault that we “diluted” these amazing Alliance characters, themes, moments, and cities with our presence …
i mean, droite, have you seen that panda rogue mocking us? and i honestly cannot blame him, he is right, even in what we are supposed to be “unique” becomes shared with the horde. so is not unique anymore.
Now? dalaran is ruined, khadgar is ruined, the cenarion circle is ruined, the silver hand full of statues of alliance heroes? yeah, now ruined.
thanks to the horde ruinning everything.
or, blizzard could have been smart and actually giving them their own unique themes. is not like they don’t have their own stuff.
Yeah, like I said, pettyness. Absurd levels of pettyness.
Its “the Horde is ruining everything Alliance, why cant they get their own”, rather than “Blizzard clearly is friggen lazy and doesn’t want to give the Horde its own, so they shove us into Alliance content for convenience”. If any factor in this game showed just how much “Horde Bias” is a myth, its the fact that Blizz repeatedly can not be bothered to actually write inclusive stories for the Horde faction. Outside of faction conflicts where we are unapologetic monstrous villains.
The Sunwalkers? The Blood Knights? Our brand and flavor of Paladin cultures get consumed by the Human centric versions every single friggen time the need for Paladins shows up. Gonk brand druids? Well, better get used to NE Druidic themes non stop; outside of Zandalar … thank god. Horde Mages? The Sunreavers? Pshh … why use them when we can use the Kirin Tor? The Horde “ruined” your stuff, because Blizz didn’t want to bother giving the Horde their own.
Not gonna lie, I actually liked when the Silver Hand, Sunwalkers, Sunreavers, and whatever the hell draenei paladins are called now were all on the same side. Wish the group was just the Argent Crusade and not the Silver Hand because that was a really weird decision, but I personally really like going into the Order Hall and seeing all the paladin organizations gathered around the mission board, or strung about the Hall.