Because you’re trying to use a grand ol’ shrug to justify bringing in meme specs. My point about wiping is that the content isn’t so face-roll easy that people don’t fail to finish raids, because they do often and repeatedly. Those wipes occur due to a collection of mistakes and meme specs are part of those mistakes.
Hand waving off a wipe with meme specs as “ahh naw, that’s probably some OTHER thing” is silly and why people correct the issue.
The fact that you say dont bring only meme specs proves they are not viable.
If they were viable bringing nothing but meme specs would be perfectly fine.
Just cause things are tuned poorly and people can get carried does not make carries viable.
Untill a pure meme raid clears Naxx memes are not viable.
Right, it’s more of a “as this goes ad astra”
Keep in mind, these whole “Spelladin” nonsense isn’t until they are full T2 geared.
By which point the ocean will be opening up and swallowing everything in the middle.
Look, people should be worrying more about what they can do to personally improve than spending effort worrying about bringing a ret pally to their raid. Thats all I’m saying.
100% agree. I’ve watched enough raid wipes on twitch to know that they were not caused by having a ret pally or two.
Which is silly because bringing a Ret Paladin is as bad a mistake as letting the MS Warrior go DPS but never use MS because of debuff limits.
All you’re saying is that you arbitrarily decided other mistakes are more important than others without justifying why.
Why don’t we see full raid groups of only fury warrior dps? Wouldn’t bringing anything but the absolute top tier be bad then?
If you are worried about carries and performance then people should also stop bringing people who aren’t full pre-raid BIS and performing in the top percentile. Anything less would be making your life harder, right?
Hes going the distance! He’s going for speed!
Shes all alone ALL ALONE
in her time of need.
Hes still there racing and pacing and plotting on his horse!
Hes fighting and biting and riding on his horse!
Hes going the distance.
Ahhhhhh, ahhhhhhh
Where is the conversation about all of these other mistakes? The controversy is over bringing a meme spec. So I’m responding to bringing a meme spec.
And i am bringing up these ‘other mistakes’ because you said “look at all the wipes on warcraft logs”. Later on you seemed to agree that wipes are caused by a ‘collection of mistakes’, so I’m not sure what the problem is.
The content is mechanically easy compared to the modern game, and must be nerfed to all heck due to using patch 1.12 because i haven’t seen a single word about people farming fire resist gear to have a chance at killing Rag.
We’re going round in circles here. If you can clear the raid with 38 people, you can clear it with adding 2 ret Pallys. Everyone needs to chill the heck out and try to have some fun.
Lol, I am not even going all the way down a tree, I will be a hybrid as I was in vanilla
Oh.
Saying Ret Paladins are terrible DPS in no way hinders your ability to bring them or play them if you so desire.
Ok. Stop trying to spin this by taking quotes out of context.
That is what I said
This forum topic is about bringing meme specs. That is the thread that we are posting in and the thread I responded to. YOU brought up a poor example of raid wipes in logs, which we seem to agree are caused by ‘a collection of mistakes’.
My point is, this thread and the ongoing “meme specs are bad” crusade never mentions all of these other things that can cause a wipe. But the controversy du jour is focused on meme specs.
If you can clear a raid with people dead through half the fight, or with less than 40 people, you can clear the raid with a Ret.
Maybe people should stop worrying about bringing a ret and instead worry about what they can do to improve their play.
I recently started a Pally, going full meme-ret spec. You just can’t stop me.
Any topic about raid viability considers the entirety of that topic. Looking at any one set of things alone in a vacuum is why people get the wrong impression about what does and doesn’t work in a raiding environment. You can’t just look at meme specs alone without considering their weight with other mistakes, otherwise you’re not actually here to discuss their viability and place in the raid, you’re just here to advocate for your favorite brand of mistake over others.
We don’t need to focus on bad Healers or terrible rotations as often because people don’t make repeated threads about how they shouldn’t be shunned from Raids because they didn’t want to not use Feint off CD or really like the look of Arcane Missiles. Myopia is not a healthy trait.
No one said we can. Enjoy!
Look, each group or guild is free to set their own goals. I don’t have an issue with groups that want to stack the absolute top spec and blast through a raid as fast as humanly possible.
I just don’t think its healthy to promote a mindset that makes it seem like this is required.
It isn’t. We aren’t. If explaining that a Warrior can do Ret DPS three times over makes it feel like a requirement, that’s entirely on you. However, the community writ large is going to adapt towards preferring the bigger DPS output.
The sheer number of “Mark of the Chosen” users, notably all the Tanks hanging onto it, is proof enough that the community listens to the advice of the min/max crowd. You don’t have to follow that advice, it is your character and your raid, but don’t be surprised when people correctly frown upon your choices as suboptimal.
of course all specs are viable. This is 1.12. Anyone who argues otherwise is memeing
They just aren’t optimal
No, they really aren’t. Groups can be viable with these specs in them, but they don’t do viable DPS. It isn’t just that they aren’t optimal. They could literally do twice as much DPS as they do now and still be suboptimal. That’s a whole other level of bad tuning.
I understand that warriors will do more dps than a ret. I’m pretty sure the vast majority of people understand that.
All I’m saying is that this isn’t super difficult content, and everyone is going to be ok if we don’t all min/max.
For retail I would NOT advocate bringing a spec that at best does half the dps of other specs, when trying to clear current content, especially on heroic or Mythic.
I’m not insane. I think that classic is an exception in that its a 15 year old game that by modern standards is mechanically simple, there are no achievements to chase, and the servers will be around forever. Let people enjoy it with their friends.
If someone is part of a group that wants to min/max, that’s great. Let everyone else do their thing.
They can. We aren’t stopping them.
I sure hope not.