I don’t care what class or spec a person is I play with, just be competent and be a good person. 
EDIT: Also, if you’re new or don’t know something, say so. I’d rather know up front then assume you know how to deal with something you don’t. Taking a minute explaining something is better then 5 mins walking back.
An AWESOME mindset, good sir!!
This is the funny part of this thread to me. So many of you are critical of what you perceive to be elitists telling others how they should have fun, and yet you are actually way more judgmental of people who enjoy competing on the damage meters.
It’s not a matter of an epeen. I am under no illusion that I am an elite player. I don’t play the hardest content and I don’t tend to group with people who play at that level either. That doesn’t mean that I cannot have fun by pushing myself to compete with the guy next to me.
Finding enjoyment from that pursuit also does not preclude me from paying attention to how smartly I play. In fact, pulling threat and standing in bad is going to ensure that I won’t compete on meters because dead players do pretty bad DPS.
Dismissing people who enjoy that experience as being overly concerned with their epeen betrays a deep elitism and judgment about how others enjoy this game.
Also worth mentioning that I am not asking for class balance changes and the fact that they aren’t coming only reinforces the necessity of being honest with people about where their class actually stands. If it matters to someone wanting to play Ret that their spec be capable of doing competitive DPS, then they need to know that it doesn’t and never will in Classic.
Stop it. Nobody is getting carried in this content. You can take those meme specs and replace with empty raid slots and still easily clear MC and Ony. The only difference between bringing a meme spec vs a non-meme spec is whether you kill Rag in 3 minutes or 3 minutes 10 seconds. Either way, the boss is dead. Stop acting like a Ret pally is going to stop you from clearing anything.
Nah, not at all. I know the competitive, alpha-male, fighter-jock attitude all too well. And I know the fun that can be had in competition. Not slighting that at all.
My suggestion was to bring that attitude to a game where it is embraced and that is not this version of World of Warcraft. This version was meant to be cooperative, not competitive. You like the fact that you are so much better than your team mates? Good for you!! I am actually glad that you enjoy that type of thing and more power to you. The game is meant to be fun after all.
But not everyone enjoys that kind of alpha-male competitiveness. So, let them enjoy the spec they want to play. Just think how much more you can gloat over them with your “super-uber-pro” spec.
Thanks.
i dont know about you guys but my preference for 5 man tanks is feral druid. they hold ALL the aggro and soak damage well.
every single one ive ran with rocked .
Here’s the thing, you can vet the people you invite to your raid to make sure they are breathing functioning people. Your argument that some people have no idea what they are doing has nothing to do with whether you can complete MC with a few meme specs. You don’t have to bring complete noobs with you.
I understand that dungeon and raid mechanics are easier in classic vs retail. That’s another point why people should relax about min maxing classic. Not only are mechanics very simple by today’s standards, we are on patch 1.12 which brings along with it basically 2 years worth of balance changes. The player base also has 15 years worth of accumulated knowledge.
If people didn’t know what they were doing in 2005, they sure as heck do now. It will not wipe the raid for you to allow for a few meme specs.
The content is not difficult. Try to have some fun with it. If there was a heroic or mythic version that actually posed a challenge, then sure, min max and overcome the challenge. This is not mythic content.
I didn’t say you do, but when folks argue against min/max on general principles like it being anti-fun or anti-social or whatever, they invariably promote showing up to play like a “noob” because harping on specs or gear is what elitist jerks do. I had a Druid block me in a 5man run because I dared ask why they kept popping out of Cat Form to toss HoTs on me and the response was: “That’s how Druid is supposed to play you jerk.”
Nor will it wipe the raid to allow for a few empty slots. That’s hardly the end-all metric by which people judge success. Do you want to run Sunken Temple with a group that takes 4 hours to clear most of it or a group that can kill every last mob in just over an hour?
Bringing a “meme spec” can actually be worked into the raid, but some specs in Vanilla are simply entirely worthless slots compared to almost anything else doing the same job. If Hunters couldn’t do as much damage as they do, they’d be an entirely meme class because of the insane lack of utility. Recognizing that isn’t a problem, and people should be aware that if they roll something like a Retribution Paladin, they are going to never truly compete with any other DPS, even once you get to Naxxramas where you get a significant boost by fighting non-stop Undead.
You can either halfass things or try to do your best. Neither of these are related to having fun either, which can be had while doing nothing useful or being the top tier DPS on every Warcraft Logs parse.
The “gap” may as well be described as an ocean, with Warriors, Rogues and Mages on one continent, and everyone else on the other.
ETA: and how you cross that ocean is entirely dependent on what else you bring to the raid that isn’t DPS.
Case in point: Hunter - if they weren’t so freaking useful, there would be significant arguments against bringing a couple of them. What they bring is utility in spades - and it’s good utility. Frost Trap, Tranq, etc etc.
A Ret Paladin brings virtually nothing a Holy Paladin doesn’t already. Improved might, I guess? They can’t seal Crusader as it eats a debuff.
A Feral brings another Brez, another Innervate, and 3% Critical to the group they’re in.
Bringing people who play ret pally or whatever that are geared correctly, pressing the correct buttons at the correct time, standing in the correct place, not ripping aggro, throwing buffs and off heals, you know, playing correctly, are absolutely fine.
Yes, don’t bring ONLY meme specs, but people who are on a crusade against them even being played at all are a problem. It’s really not a big deal.
Your previous post spent alot of effort discussing people who are geared incorrectly, or not playing their class correctly. There is a big difference between playing say, Ret Pally, and being a complete noob.
I agree, and that’s why its not a big deal to bring a ret pally or two. You’re going to clear the content anyway, so people should stop freaking out about the spec. Bringing a Ret is objectively better than bringing an empty slot.
This isn’t true. At all. Glance at Warcraft Log parses and note a LOT of wipes. Lots. On easy bosses.
That’s why my example was Sunken Temple, an instance that isn’t exactly popular and also trivialized by a single lvl60 in the group, yet it can still take literally hours to finish because “it isn’t that big a deal.”
Thing is you can play correctly on many meme specs and still fall so short that the actually certifiable moron in your raid could die in the first 30sec and still beat them on DPS contribution. That’s how bad the gulf is between some classes and others. Some of the top tier parses for Warriors on fights like Ragnaros have them dying right around the last 20% because they rip aggro with Execute… and they still beat people.
Vanilla just doesn’t have a whole lot of parity across the specs and roles, but it can still absolutely kill you if you screw around too much. Meme specs contribute to that screwing around.
This is very odd to me, how a feral can be ok becuase they bring ‘another x’ to the raid, but Ret is bad because they also bring ‘another x’ to the raid.
At least apply the same standards. If a feral can be another brez, a Ret is another LOH, BoP, rez, another buff bot, another clutch heal etc.
Except you absolutely are by characterizing it as focused on one’s epeen and attributing it to an alpha male mentality. Please stop making disingenuous comments.
This is just an example of assuming your conclusion. You don’t think friendly competition is embraced and even cultivated within a lot of guilds? That’s cute. It is also thoroughly misguided.
First of all, I never laid claim to being “so much better” than my teammates, nor did I suggest that a paradigm like that would be enjoyable. When I have the most fun is when I can see myself excel on the charts when I am doing well, but also see myself fall back when I play poorly and make mistakes. If I were competing against people who could never match me, that would be just as boring and frustrating as knowing that even playing flawlessly will result in me being significantly behind. Fortunately, I rarely find myself in the position of not being challenged except in low level dungeons where people are just phoning it in, because again, I’m not that great.
Let’s also again recognize your lack of sincerity when you claim that you are glad I enjoy that type of play while simultaneously casting yourself as morally superior because you aren’t an alpha male that wants to gloat. You aren’t replying honestly and that only hurts your credibility. You ought to consider foregoing that tactic.
I have no interest in gloating over my performance. I’m trying to satisfy myself, not look good to others. The only time I ever post a damage meter is when I am in a group with someone who obviously isn’t trying and I want to show them that their lack of effort hasn’t gone unnoticed.
And these wipes are caused by ret pallys or meme specs being present in the raid? Or were they healers running oom because they overhealed or missed timing? Or tanks who made a mistake? Or a Meta spec ripping aggro? Or literally anything else?
Actually, Hunter is outperforming Mage right now in Molten Core. That will change in later raid tiers because Hunter scales poorly, but Hunters are excellent ranged DPS at the lower raid tier people are dealing with currently.
That’s not really a relevant question if the claim you are examining is that the content will be cleared no matter what.
Why are you so desperate to find a different straw that broke the camel’s back? All of these things contribute to wipes but if you really want to string them all together cohesively:
All of these things work in conjunction with one another. No one advocates for Healers to be allowed to spam their favorite spell, regardless of efficacy or efficiency, but you’ll argue people should be allowed to do a spec that’s the equivalent of a Rogue using a single weapon?
You’re just arbitrarily favoring one mistake over another. They all contribute to raid failures and they all exist on otherwise successful runs. The logic of meme spec allows for utter stupidity in other metrics because no one thing kills the raid.
So why introduce more mistakes by default?
The other player’s point about raid wipes is what is not relevant. I’m just responding to them.
People wipe for all sorts of reasons, not because there were meme specs in a raid. They brought up raid wipes in a discussion of whether its ok to bring meme specs, and I’m saying that the presence of wipes in raiding has nothing to do with Ret pally’s or anything else.
Besides, you can wipe in raiding and still clear the content. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I’m sure we all have wiped a few times while raiding, right?
I’m not desperately looking for anything. You brought up raid wipes on warcraft logs. I’m just pointing out that you can wipe for a ton of different reasons. I’m sure even ‘Meta’ raids who do not allow for ret pallys also wipe, right?
I’m just saying that ‘look at the logs, there are tons of wipes’ is not proving anything. Trying to spin this as me being
is disingenuous.