Yeah, no. No one has ever EVER said, “I want my class to do viable DPS,” and meant that they wanted to do half the DPS of other classes.
You either know that and are intentionally misrepresenting the facts or else you are so woefully ignorant that it absolutely boggles the mind.
I honestly can’t tell which it is.
While I understand min-max conceptually and it is appropriate for some games and content, i would find this game incredibly boring if everyone was only playing one spec of warrior, mage, or priest. The other classes and specs are there for a reason.
I for one welcome our ret pally and enhance shammy brothers.
Also, player > class or spec.
I have yet to see anyone that isn’t saying that…
Everyone is aware that some specs underperform relative to others. However, they are also saying that that performance is “enough” to succeed.
So, I believe that it is YOU who is misrepresenting facts based on a narrative you are pushing.
No, I’m saying that when people say they want their DPS spec to be viable, they generally mean that they want to be competitive with other DPS classes played by players of similar skill.
I know it’s really hard to figure out that I’m saying this because I’ve only clarified it a dozen times or so in this thread.
I am not making this argument nor is the argument I’m making a straw man. You folks have set the bar for “viable DPS” as “Can the raid group kill the boss with them in the group?” I’m pointing out that even dead afk players or empty raid slots can clear that bar, which makes it clear that it’s an invalid way to define what is viable.
When I pointed this out, Caxtren moved the goalposts do “Can they do < 0 DPS?”
That seems like an arbitrary and ridiculous standard to me too. By that definition someone who goes afk after the first 10 seconds of the fight is viable DPS.
No, my actual argument is that players considering running Ret ought to be warned that they will not crack half the DPS of other melee DPS classes. The reason has nothing to do with whether or not they will be excluded. Rather, it is an awareness that a lot of people get frustrated when they discover that even playing their class exceptionally well will leave them near the bottom of the meters.
I know this is apparently really difficult for some of you to understand, but a lot of people who want to play a DPS spec want to feel like they can DPS well. Many people don’t find it fun to pull up the rear no matter what. Those people aren’t necessarily elitist. They just enjoy feeling capable at their role.
Then you must have never read the class forums for any class for the last 15 years.
Everyone is aware that some specs underperform, but they are accustomed to that gap being something like 15-20% because that’s how things have been in retail for a very long time. They aren’t used to that gap being as high as 50-60%.
You’re talking about a different game to counter an argument no one is making in this game.
No, I’m talking about the version of this game people have been playing for the last several years and recognizing that they may carry that expectation into this “Classic” version of the game.
Considering the fact that people who knew what to expect wouldn’t be asking if their spec was viable, I think it’s reasonable to believe that we should make sure they are given accurate information.
Yeah, the version many people playing this game despised…which is why classic exists at all.
You’re making a rather large assumption, one that has exactly nothing to support it, to justify a flawed position regarding a problem that doesn’t even exist.
Most people playing classic are aware that it is, at least for now, a static game. Your class can do “X” and that’s it and that’s not going to change. Maybe, down the road, if this gets extended in some fashion you might have a point, but we’re not there yet so you don’t.
Sssshhhh don’t try and logic the willfully ignorant derps. It hurts their brains. Or whatever is supposed to be between their ears, idk
a good ret will out dps a bad mage. yes. there are bad mages in the game.
That’s beside the point. They either understand how far below other specs they are or else they don’t. If they did, I seriously doubt they would even bother asking if their spec was viable.
I don’t think it’s a large assumption to believe that a lot of people who want to DPS and go to the community to ask if a spec is viable hope to get information about how competitive they might be able to expect to be on DPS meters.
I think it requires incredible mental gymnastics to believe otherwise.
If they were aware of the static nature of the game and where their spec fell into it, then why would they be asking if their spec is viable in the first place?
The Mage would have to be in a coma or wearing agi/str gear. You’d literally have to compare the best 1% of Paladins to the worst 1% of Mages which isn’t the greatest argument.
people have and always will be terrible at their classes no matter how easy they are.
And most people want their class to be tuned well enough that they don’t require everyone else in the raid to be brain dead in order to compete with them.
assgazer seems unfit for classic.
Why not?
You’re the one hung up on some magical number that’s “close enough” to enjoy the spec. If people are aware of it and still want to pursue it, who are you to complain about that? I mean, besides a pretentious ignoramus?
And just because people know that the game is static doesn’t mean everyone knows what the number cutoffs for various things are… Are you a special folk or something?
And did you really just say that it whatever you lovingly call your mind, you think that it’s logical that people who are asking if what they want to do will cut the mustard are in reality asking how much mustard they can cut? I know you are desperately trying to make that case, and poorly I might add, but it’s not true. If you believe otherwise, please provide an example of someone stating that…
Only according to the organ grinder monkey flailing about in your head…
My whole point is that we need to make them aware of it. If they understand that their spec does less than half the DPS of others and they still want to play that spec, that’s totally fine. I wouldn’t complain about that. I am saying that this “All specs are viable…Kumbaya…let’s all hold hands” nonsense is going to mislead people about what they can actually expect. I don’t want people to get to max level and feel disappointed in what their spec can accomplish.
The least we can do is be honest and tell them that while they won’t pull viable DPS, the difficulty of the content is such that it won’t matter so long as they find a raid group who is cool with it.
But you are complaining about it… In fact, you are inventing motive and requests that don’t exist to condemn it.
I just got kicked from a SM Cath run because i wasn’t aoe spec’d. As sub rogue I realise that marking targets isn’t for everyone. But it’s totally viable. See it’s not just about spec… iuts about strategy. Everyone wants to cleave stuff these days. I am actively openly discriminated for not doing aoe. AOE isn’t the only option. I know a lot are talking about raids. But I am talking about the rest of the social content. Dungeons do not need to be cleaved. It’s not faster or easier.