Indeed. Very, very sad. Ya know… I bet today, that you could make all your DPS enhancement shaman and clear the bosses.
It wouldn’t be enjoyable, which is the point. I like DPSing, but it isn’t fun when I can see that I’m not able to put out anything approaching competitive DPS. It’s not fun knowing that players making tons of mistakes or dying halfway through the fight are still doing more DPS than me. That’s frustrating. I want to be able to feel like I am vital to the success of the raid instead of believing they would have downed it even if I had gone AFK for the entire fight.
I think an awful lot of people feel that way, which is why we shouldn’t inflate expectations to unrealistic levels.
It’s not fun… for you.
Competitive DPS… i.e. Damage Per Second. i.e. big numberz.
If THAT is what drives you to play a 14 year old game… then yeah… you probably should play something you don’t want to play.
I mean like hunters… very poor scaling… they cannot compete with mages and fury warriors… EVER… Why then did you roll one?
Play what you want. There will be a spot for you in raids.
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It’s not fun…for a lot of people.
i.e. the only way I can objectively measure my performance as a DPS spec.
It isn’t clear to me exactly why you seem so aghast at the notion that people want to feel like their presence is relevant to the success of the raid group. I think the overwhelming majority of players want to feel that way. If I can objectively see that my DPS output is so poor that the group would be just as likely to succeed if I went out to get a pizza during the fight, that isn’t fun for nearly anyone.
Sure, in later tiers the scaling will put them behind, but God knows if I will ever get to the later tiers of raids. I am a pretty casual player who isn’t likely to see much beyond BWL. During those earlier tiers, I will absolutely be able to be competitive on the damage meters unless I’m in a raid full of people that are flat out better than me.
If all you want to do is be present during a raid, then you can choose any spec that you want. The point I have been making from the start is that if you want to DPS and feel like your spec is viable in that role (i.e. capable of doing competitive damage when compared to players of similar skill), then you probably ought to think twice before rolling a Pally or Shaman.
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Forgive me if I wasn’t clear, but I was directly refering to something I calculated before, which I did again in this thread.
I could have gamed the situation to make a Ret paladin look even better… but I didn’t have to.
I made everything even as if everyone in the raid had the same gear and Ret Pally actually did less dps than they are capable of, and calculated a generic situation where a Ret Pally replaced a rogue.
All you need is a minimum of 350 dps to defeat Patchwork… That is easily achievable by every class spec. You can theoretically complete patchwork with a Raid 100% FULL of any one particular dps spec as the dps.
The whole point of it was to show that it’s significantly less of an impact than what you are suggesting… and it even comes with some perks and X factors.
Frankly, this simply isn’t believable. The use of the word “max” is problematic, but the context of the entire post makes it clear that you were diminishing the possible effects of having a Ret Pally take up a raid slot as always being insignificant, when your calculation doesn’t even come close to proving that it will be except under nearly ideal conditions when the content is trivial.
No, you certainly didn’t…because you gamed it just enough to make the scenario completely irrelevant to the majority of groups pushing through the content.
With an ideal raid composition, assuming the raid group could literally leave half of their DPS outside the instance and still be successful, and assuming zero deaths. Are you still honestly so obtuse that you cannot understand why this scenario is irrelevant to what most guilds will realistically face?
More like 365, but that also assumes a perfect raid composition, that nobody dies, and that everything goes perfectly. If your tanks aren’t healed up properly and Hateful Strike kills off a couple of your rogues in the first minute of the fight, that number goes up even more.
Of course it is achievable, but it is likely that many still won’t hit those marks and the more players who don’t, the more it hurts the raid to have a Ret Pally taking up a DPS slot.
Yes, under the incredibly favorable circumstances you have assumed with the fight always going flawlessly, no one ever dying, and everyone putting out solid DPS, it’s not that big of a deal. If any one of those conditions isn’t met, it becomes a much more significant issue and you keep failing to understand that point. You keep making assumptions and using hypotheticals that assume ideal circumstances and that’s just now how raiding works for most guilds trying to get through the content.
"the notion that people want to feel like their presence is relevant to the success of the raid group"
And it isn’t clear to me why you seem to think that putting out similar DPS as other classes is the measurement of that contribution to the success.
It’s been covered ad nauseam that hybrid classes bring more than just DPS to the raid. It doesn’t show on damage meters… but it’s real, and it is definitely relevant to the success of raids.
I’m not just talking buffs and survivability skills like cleanse, freedom, protection, etc… but the fact that when you come to fight you might need more heals, your Shaman can switch gear and heal… while the Fury warrior can bandage spec I suppose… If you need an offtank for adds, a Ret can go Prot. This is flexibility that pure DPS cannot provide.
Then there is the outside contribution to raids. If a member helps farm items for the raid, helps others get their attunements, dungeon runs, etc, levels their professions so the guild can use them to effect… THAT person is WAY more useful to the raid than the lazy Fury Warrior or Mage who thinks their spot is guaranteed because of their “leetz DPSz”.
Sorry man… you are just wrong. If we were talking progression Mythic raiding, then yeah… you may have ti min-max to get bosses down timely.
But it’s not… it’s a 14 year old game where most people don’t give a crap if you are “the class to roll to top the meters” because the boss is going down… easily.
What they care about is that they are playing and having fun with friends and guildies that are enjoying the ride right along with them.
You go ahead and leave out Ret palis and Shaman… if you are in charge of who is in the raid or not. As I said… you do you. But I won’t limit my experience to watching damage meters and stretching out my epeen for others to ooohh and awe at… and I’m a mage. (A really, really skilled one)
Nope… I’m going to enjoy my Ret pali friends (and alt!) and Druids, and Shadow Priests… I’m going into the raids grinning and coming out ROLFMAO.
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I have read through this thread today while I was at work. I just have one question.
I have not raided old classic content for a long time but I do not remember if any of the old raids have enraged timers?
If they do not have any enrage timers then why does it matter if X class puts out Y dps?
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Because the function of their role is to provide DPS. That seems…kinda obvious.
It’s negligible, particularly when there are likely Holy specced Pallys ready and willing to provide the exact same utility and also, you know…fulfill their primary role effectively.
If you need more heals why wouldn’t you want a Resto Shaman instead of an Enhance wearing resto gear?
Ummm, Fury warrior pull insane DPS. Why are you including them in a conversation about DPS that are not viable for that role?
So can a Fury Warrior, and they can also pulle 2-3 times the DPS of that Ret Paladin. Which one would I prefer for my raid? 
It’s flexibility that the healing specs of these classes already provide.
This has literally nothing to do with whether or not the raid would have a noticeably better chance to succeed if that dutiful Ret Pally jumped into the lava pit at the front of the raid and then went out for beers for the rest of the night. You can be a good member of the raid who provides outside contributions to the group and also play a class that isn’t stuck doing half the DPS of everyone else. Again, remember that I’m not saying people should exclude Ret Pallys like the one you described. I’m saying that most people who plan to DPS in raids would prefer if their spec allowed them to contribute during the raid by actually providing effective DPS. Those folks need to understand that they are better off rolling literally any other class if that is what they want to do.
I’ve never suggested that min-maxing is necessary or that you cannot successfully complete the content with non-viable DPS in the group. I’ve never said that any class must be excluded or that I would exclude them. Why do you find it necessary to continue using these absurd straw man arguments when I have repeatedly and consistently made it clear that I don’t subscribe to any of those things? I don’t know how much clearer I can be that I am not suggesting that you cannot complete content with these specs in the raid. If I get time I might go back for fun and count the number of times I have made this clear in this thread. Off the top of my head I’m guessing it is a dozen or more.
Yes, but if they roll their class expecting to DPS in raids, they might not actually find it very fun to always underperform compared the rest of their friends and guildies.
And I am certainly not suggesting you should do otherwise. It would be really helpful if you replied to my actual comments instead of making up a bunch of crap I never said and then arguing with that.
Some did. I’m not sure if there is a comprehensive list somewhere, but off the top of my head I know Hakkar and Patchwerk did.
Because healers can and did run out of mana on long fights. Good DPS lightens the burden on healers and makes it less punishing if they have to expend a bunch of mana for burst healing. It just generally makes every fight go more smoothly. Additionally, the sooner the fight ended the less chance of someone screwing up and causing a wipe with something like exploding as the living bomb on a group of healers. Long fights increase the chance of failure.
Thanks for ya response. I did some research. Looks like the first "enrage / beserk " boss was in BWL.
Classic
-
Blackwing Lair
- Vaelastrasz the Corrupt: The first great DPS race of World of Warcraft. Players have three minutes to defeat Vael before their buff fades and healers no longer have infinite mana to keep up with constant heavy raidwide damage. Compounding this limit, a random player is lost to Burning Adrenaline every 15 seconds, lowering raid DPS over the duration of the fight.
-
Zul’Gurub
Bloodlord Mandokir- Levels up every time he kills a player, increasing his damage.
Bosses without Enrages
Although many raid boss encounters feature some sort of time limit, some do not.
Examples:
- All bosses in Molten Core, and nearly all bosses in Blackwing Lair, as these encounters predate the widespread use of the mechanic.
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And it is now clear there is only one thing left to say:
Go back to retail. 
I mean, it’s clear you have nothing else to say. When we take straw man out of your arsenal all you have is, “Go away.”
I’ve read every post in this discussion (I’m a glutton for punishment)
I think we can sum it up as:
Summary
Some people feel “meaningful contribution” is measured by DPS output.
Others believe various support activities are meaningful contributions.
Rationale/ observation
The former finds fun and satisfaction only through maximum damage output and speed of completion. Success is measured by speed of completion and absolute values measured by DPS & HPS:Overheal .
Internal competition as measured by meters is highly valued by the members of this group.
This group admittedly will rather have an empty DPS slot than a sub-optimal by their definition, group member. At the vary least, sub-optimal will receive loot only if no one else needs it, and then only if it’s BOP because BOE’s can be sold and the gold will benefit the members who meaningfully contribute.
The latter finds enjoyment through a balance of completion and social experience. This group will adjust group makeup to ensure completion of the raid and will indeed use meters. The purpose of meters will be to examine comparison across class and spec.
If one preforms significantly above or below the mean, an analysis will be performed and recommendations made to improve under performers. Mandating specific build or rotation is unlikely but some will choose to change due to personal competitive tendencies.
Frequently this group will adjust to include more or less of a given role e.g one less tank and one more DPS usually by changing role by person. Yes removing an under performing individual might be an alternative, the group will likely search for other alternatives due to respecting the individual as part of a team outside the raid itself. The hybrid is of value to this group.
Conclusion
Neither is the right way. Telling any new player “don’t play that class/spec” is not the right answer. Explaining that some guilds/raid teams will not bring you, most specifically those guilds focused on raiding, raid optimization, and “ahead of the curve” success.
This strict raid makeup will relax as we meet the middle of the curve. At the middle of the curve, the peak, you may be expected to fill another role at times.
Why is this a difficult concept for those whose focus is at both ends of the curve?
Both sides present math to show their points and both sides declare the opposing view math as inaccurate or irrelevant.
By it’s very nature the bell curve shows the majority of players fall somewhere between the two.
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Either this isn’t true or else you are deliberately misrepresenting what has been said in this thread because this simply isn’t true:
Frankly, neither is this:
But that’s the thing - NO fight in Classic is tuned that tightly to not allow an average guild with “meme” specs to be able to complete MC - > Naxx.
A struggling guild will need top tier dps / healers because the players are struggling.
Now if we’re talking a guild who is trying to realm first or doing competitive speed clears then yeah bringing a feral druid/ret pali etc will probably not be wise.
but for majority of guilds you just need a healthy population of raiders… THAT is the hard part of classic.
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IF that was so important to you… why arent you playing a warrior?
I mean hunter isnt exactly pushing for top spots on DPS meters is it?
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while that isnt true, i agree, people should be able to raid on whatever the frick they want
Imo all specs ARE viable. Elitist jerks telling you otherwise is simply wrong. You can easily take the bottom parsing dps and heals and use feral tanks and clear any content in game. It’s about the player, not the class. Sure, some classes are better than others but it’s always like this since the beginning of time. But I would rather take that quiet guy that knows what he is doing in any class he wants than some tard that spouts “BUT MA NUMBERZ!” and tops the dos meter.
Problem is people are seeing old posts and seeing people talking about viable not viable in a vacuum. What they don’t realize is that they are talking about progression raiding. What they are NOT talking about is doing MC, BWL, and even AQ40 in 1.12.