Algalon speech makes me have questions

Lore Story Forum
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I heard the Algalon speech when we were raiding during Wrath, but there were parts of it that didn’t make sense and I convinced myself that I should be more patient and wait, so that maybe in later expansions they would add more writing to clear up the ambiguities. But to be honest, I don’t think they really ever did. Now recently, all over the internet, everybody constantly mentions it but then make implications and assumptions that the speech didn’t really say.

Let me just kind of jot down some questions that were in my mind. No chronological order or anything.

The speech says “all calculated odds”, does that mean he saw real worlds destroyed or just ran a scan millions of times where he would have sent the signal for reorigination in all of those scans except this one?

The speech says makers flame, not titan flame; but he doesn’t say maker in the other parts of his speech, he says titans when he isn’t talking about flame. So does him saying maker’s flame on many worlds…does that mean titans or Sargeras?

Does Algalon know the difference between Titans and Sargeras? Does he know Sargeras isn’t part of the pantheon anymore?

Speech says he saw “worlds born and razed in less than a heartbeat” , okay…but that is not how worlds shaped by the Titans are made? All the worlds shaped by Titans that we know about took time, sometimes thousands of years to be born. So again, did he see real worlds razed or just processed a computer scan that simulated millions of worlds where he would have confirmed razing in each of those simulations?

If real worlds for any of the above, did he do it when the Titans were still alive and personally in contact, or after, when the Titans were gone and could never second guess his decision?

If real worlds for any of the above, again, why did none of those souls go to shadowlands? Why did Shadowlands expansion never mention or rumor or hint or even suggest that some souls or some worlds anywhere had been reoriginated? Does this mean it didn’t happen, or if it did happen the souls got put somewhere else when reorigination was complete?

Why did Aggramar never reoriginate Draenor?

Why did no titan reoriginate Argus?

Why did no Titan reoriginate Azeroth way back when they were physically present and the Black Empire was at its greatest power and extent and the world at its most corrupted?

Why did no titan reoriginate K’aresh?

Was Algalon aware of Sargeras betraying all other Titans, and if not…did Sargeras tell Algalon to reoriginate those worlds?

Was Algalon made by the Titans or made by somebody else and repurposed or reprogrammed by Titans later on? If made by somebody else, is that who he would refer to as a maker?

Why did we never talk to him ever again, even to see if he could scan for corruption to see if it was less or where that corruption was so we could deal with it?

How do Constellars work…Algalon’s speech acts like he goes all over the universe but other lore sources claim that each world has their own private Constellars, including the single Constellar that Sargeras killed at the world Sargeras cut in half, and Argus raid journal says that the constellars which appear in the fight belong only to Argus… so again, is it possible Algalon was a constellar “only” for Azeroth and every world he thinks he saw razed was another hypothetical Azeroth in a computer simulation in Algalon’s mind where the simulation lasted for less than a second each? By all means, he could have run the simulation millions of times and repeatedly concluded that reorigination was warranted, then when we defeat him he could question his ability to calculate accurately?

So what happens ‘after’ Reorigination? Does the planet get put back into a good order with corruption removed and souls put back into new bodies to try again? Or does the world have to start over and develop for many thousands of years to new life and new souls?

If reorigination is real and not simulated, do the Titans always create the sentient mortals which are getting reoriginated? Wouldn’t they have every moral right to do so, if there wouldn’t be any sentient mortals without them on such worlds? Morality being subjective, there. Same as every moral reaction to what Titans are doing is subjective also.

We needed more writing by blizzard to clear up some of these ambiguities that the Algalon speech doesn’t answer.

edit: Well, I’m glad I didn’t have any easy questions to answer.

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Why does Algalon use pretty much all Shadow or cosmic void magic?

The Chronicle book says that Algalon was specifically assigned to Azeroth by Aman’thul so it doesn’t really make sense to say he visited milions of planets. Maybe your idea of simulating Azeroth millions of times could fit better. Though it’s still worrying that he keeps considering whether to reoriginate you and keeps thinking yes, yes, yes.

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Okay, so, the first thing to note about Algalon is that he, and his fight, and his words, are relics of old lore. As in Titan lore was quite literally different and not even written yet in some parts, to the point where the sequence of events when it came to Azeroth and the Titans and the Old Gods wasn’t even clear. This is all pre-Chronicle, when the planet itself wasn’t even considered overly special in the cosmos, besides the fact that it had repelled the Legion.

During Wrath lore, and honestly aaaaaall the way up until the very first Chronicle book, the Titans were not only an unknown, but a potential and likely threat. The implied lore was that they went around ‘ordering’ worlds as part of their own vision, and Azeroth was one such world. When a world became overrun with disorder, which all the mortal races were considered to be, they would wipe the slate clean and return that world to its base ‘ordered’ state again. That was what Algalon was referring to in his speech. Constellar can travel through the cosmos much faster than the Titans, and so when a world became disordered and a beacon went out, they’d go and flip the “kill the things” switch. So he had indeed seen many, many worlds burn. Prior to Chronicle it was assumed the Titans would be the final bosses of WoW, that we’d beat the Legion and then they’d swoop in and try to wipe Azeroth out. The Void Lords, and the Void itself, was not even part of the equation.

Titans also move through space relatively slowly, if way faster than anything in the real world. It takes thousands of years, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, for them to get to a planet physically, that’s why Sargeras needed to be summoned as well. Algalon likely had no clue the Titans had been slain.

Reorigination is something they can only seem to do with the proper “engines” in place. So with the Black Empire, they had to wipe it out in a war before they had the means to do anything. Also by the time we got to Draenor, and to Argus, the lore was different and the Titans were canonically killed by Sargeras now (and kept in soul form as prisoners). By that point, their motivations had been retconned and the cosmology was totally different, Aggramar really didn’t have a need or the means to Reoriginate, especially since he was alone.

K’aresh was essentially Void nuked, there wasn’t anything left to fix.

As for Shadowlands, well, besides it being at odds with almost every other lore addition in WoW, keep in mind we only saw a small portion of the afterlife, and they were portions where nearly everyone forgets their past lives eventually, or buries it. Those who remember Reorigination wouldn’t be in the afterlives we saw, they’d be in one of the thousands of others. Also, it’s now somewhat in doubt if Reorigination is something they do all of the time now in lore, or just for Azeroth.

An Ordered world, per this state in the old lore, is not a natural one, but it is free of corruption, and even anything that might possibly get corrupted.

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I’m sorry, but I cannot take your reply seriously when you make that statement… because even the Vanilla WoW in game book sitting on a table in various places in game titled “On the Ordering of Azeroth” clearly described how special the Titans thought Azeroth was in the cosmos.

That is another question that writers didn’t seem to answer.

Worrying, sure, but I still don’t think it is automatically evil.

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Damn bro, I can see why no one tries to answer your questions.

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He is a titanfanboy. No logic can comprehend any well meaned response here.

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Thats the big problems of a lot of people, they convince themelves that there is some kind of “bigger plan” behind unansewered questions like “ho just wait and see and you will have answers!!!” you have lots of “lore defenders” who go and answer this to me when i say there is a problem…and then the thing is, time passe and you forget, and the questions are still not answered, but you forgot you had these questions soooo nobody then say “heee its still a problem!”

So the conclusion is : never convince yourself that you must wait, question it instantly!

For example, back in DF, i said that Kurog made no sense, as well as the Primalist thing, because, like, how do they ever came to be? What made Kurog want to serve Razageht? How he knew about her and entered into contact with her? I pointed out these plot holes right in the start of DF, and peoples were like “ho just wait there will be answers!!!” Do you hear from Kurog after 10.0? NO its not even a thing…but people forgot.

The Makers are a name used for the Titans since Vanilla, its kinda self explainatory here, for example the place around Uldaman is called “Terrace of the Makers” and the npc refers to the Titans as the Makers since Vanilla. In for example again Uldaman discs quests.

Here i think its a bit more rethorical than anything, you must consider that his speces (the constellars) live a very very very long time, and for near eternal beings such a himself, “thousands of years” pass like the blink of an eye. They dont have the same conception of time that mortals do.

At that point in the story the titans were gone, but back in wrath we did not know that the titans were gone (maybe the writers did not even had that plot of the titans beng gone yet)

Because there was no titans world soul in it.

I suppose because they did not find it before Sargeras did, you must consider that, the only titan who actually traveled the cosmos was Sargeras and Aggramar, others did not even do that.

Again, same as i said above, THEY NEED TO FIND THE WORLD AND ANALYSE THEM to see if they have a world soul. The Great dark is massive.

But i mean, all of these questions are answered in Chronnicles V1 and 2 so its bit weird you would still ask yourself these questions.

We dont know the origins of the Constellars yet.

These things are answered in Ulduar by the machin behind the Iron Council, you need to listen to what it says, it explain the all proces of Reorigination.

Well, Poised is right on the fact that, back in War3 Manual times (which is by the way the books you talking about are using as their sources yes Warcraft 3 Manual) Azeroth was not said to be a titan or a world soul or whatever. This was brought by Chronnicles V1.

But i am curious, where does it says exactly that Azeroth was special in the war3 Manual?

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The fact that you lied in your reply to me about a readily available Vanilla WoW lore fact does not persuade me to “want” any reply by you. It is that damaging to your credibility.

A certain amount of patience and humility is still appropriate…but you are right; the gap between when I have questions about the credibility of a witness and when I bring up those questions will probably have to be shortened.

I’m fully aware of the occasional usage of the term maker; but you didn’t address why Algalon does not say maker in every step of his dialogue…nor whether Algalon can distinguish between Sargeras using any flames and the rest of the pantheon using any flames.

As I said, then the rhetoric fails…that’s not how worlds are originated to begin with; and comparing it to how long my mortal heart takes to beat once is not a consistent metaphor.

Then we need more writing to describe this. I consider the Titans innocent until proven guilty on being accused of being villains…so if they had an emergency device for reorigination that required Titans seeing a signal and approving before anything can be done…then it matters if the Titans were unavailable for approving any activation.

That was never a requirement for reorigination; unless you are trying to convince me that Reoriginating millions of planets all had titan world souls in them…which would violate the in game lore of Titans saying that world souls were rare in the universe.

On the last part first, that is not correct…“all” of the Titans had been traveling through the great dark beyond looking for world souls; it only says that Sargeras and Aggramar had an extra duty of combating chaos, in this case fighting demons. Then back to the first part…not even Sargeras ever reoriginated Argus. So it doesn’t make sense to assume that reoriginations were ever frequent or first option procedures.

None of the questions in my initial comment were “EVER” answered in any Chronicle book so far. And reorigination does not harm a world soul by any lore that we have. If Reorigination was ever a frequent or first option solution…it would have been done on Azeroth. But it was not. Thus giving reasonable doubt to say it was never a frequent or first option solution.

I already did that back when Wrath was progression. It doesn’t answer my question. The Archivum object reads – “Archivum System says: The decomposition of the planet and its living organisms into base elements: metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint.” – Which doesn’t answer how long the reconstitution takes, doesn’t say lifeforms are rebuilt…and since the planet is not the world soul, it doesn’t include any harm for the world soul. It doesn’t say if they rebuild the lifeforms as they were but without corruption, it doesn’t say if lifeforms need to redevelop from scratch over many thousands of years. None of that is answered in the archivum like you claimed.

Don’t change the goalposts, he didn’t say titan or world soul, he said planet of no importance. Factually refuted by the Vanilla WoW in game books.

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I mean, he can use many different names, why would he stick to one? Its weird you would want him to just say “makers” in every step of the way, its bit playing small head to me. Its like if you told me Azshara was not the Empress, but the Queen, and that the Empress the nagas refered to was another person ><

You forget one thing, there is a titan who use “flames” and its Khaz’Goroth, and the term “fire of creation” (because of the titanFORGED" was a thing.

Again, i just feel you either overthink it, or you play small head…

You really want to think there is more, but there is not, its like if you wanted to put your foot in a pool of 5cm hoping it was 5m deep.

I think you are forgeting a crucial point here, the Titans had instructed that, if the Prime Designate would come to die, then it would mean that the keepers had failed, and thus, that the world had to be reoriginated, Loken changed the discs and data after trapping Odyn in the Halls of Valor and proclaimed himself as Prime Designate.

Thus, since Loken died by our hands in the Hall of Lightning, the Prime Designate was indead dead, which sent a message for Alagalon to come and enforce the will of the titans to reoriginate the world.

But i think, you miss the point, the whole Algalon thing, it hd a message behind it, the message that, we as non titanforged as “non machins” we have free will, and we are stronger than the odds, than statistics and calculations. Thats what Alagalon realize.

Now, i get your “wish” that you so hardly want the titans to be “not villain” but its like if you told me, that antagonist in the sci-fi who thinks that free will is wrong are not villains, because titans are agaisnt free will, agaisnt “bugs” they see us as “bugs in the matrix” .

Where does it says that the titans have reogriginate millions of world IN THE NEW LORE! (Meaning since Chronnicles) because i have the deep feeling tht you relay on war3 manual to say that one.

And well, i did forgot something, when it came to Draenor, and also its in Chronicles v2 : Aggramar was indead reoriginating Draenor, but he was interrupted by Sargeras who then killed him…

Give me a source that actually states that they did all travel the cosmos in search of world souls.

But even if they did travel it, that dont change the fact that they maybe did not find that planet, remember Sargeras was the only one to even find that planet which was corrupted by the Void.

But Sargeras had other plans when he came to Argus, why would he have reoriginated it? Your point makes no sense…Sargeras wanted to recruit the eredars into his army, why would he reoriginate the planet?

Then, why am i able to answer them?

Why?

It is self explainatory, it says that it press a reset button, so bascially, every living being are destroyed, and thus new life come again, without corruption since they new. But since the old gods would still be here, corruption can come back.

Also you froget one point, reorigination can be used multiple times.

Then give that source.

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I’m going to the Hall of Explorers right now to read this book, so if you’re trolling me then congrats, you won(?).

Edit: There is no mention of Azeroth being special at all to the Titans, the only outlier that they react to is the presence of the Old Gods, whose evil disturbed them. You tossed out my entire explanation trying to answer the questions you had that people hadn’t bothered answering for almost a month because you apparently can’t read and didn’t think I would fact check you when the book is readily available to read in game.

Edit Edit: Reading it over again and it even says the Titans had “countless works” and were shaping worlds as they saw fit and just happened across a “small world” on their way. Azeroth is described as being one among thousands, with no mention of it being special in any way, aside from Old Gods being on it. What the hell.

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Yeah, that’s about what you can expect from this person.

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I’d say pretty much all the lore up to and including Legion was turbo charged Mountain dew overload of fantasy stuff that always… felt a bit off.

Like, I never understood the Culling of Stratholme sequence really, like, ok, the zombies are infected, just like andorhal, so they’ll become zombies, so why don’t we-

How can you even consider that!

I order the Knights purged!

I can’t watch you do this.

And then later with Sylvannas. Randomly she’s spared, then in Frozen Throne she has a chance to kill Arthas but decides to just “drain his energy” and taunts him about it and risks herself just to taunt him but then gets chased away. Kel Thuzad predicted his own demise and it all played perfectly into his hands, except when it doesn’t, but Mal’Ganis gets shafted for doing the same things, etc, etc.

I’m just saying video game lore is sort of background material really and nobody who played games in the 80s or 90s or 00s thought too much about it and were just kinda fueled to put forth anything and everything that came to mind.

If you did, like I feel like I did, it’s like, ok… but… why… what… when… but then it’s over and the next beat comes and you forget about it.

To be more on point, nothing about Algalon’s speech really adds up to anything in the grand scheme of things. I read all your points and they’re all basically valid questions, but it’s best just to think of it as, “biggest possible world ending threat we can imagine, ah ha, a force beyond Azeroth, Titans, Azeroth is corrupted and they have to fight a super god eternal being to save the day.” The actual words he said are seriously just fluffy flairy stuff to make it sound cooler.

Personally, I think this is ok, it really is just a video game after all.

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Stratholme should have hammered home how evil Arthas already was even before joining the scourge. Not even considering other options. He made it even easier for the Undead to take over Lordaeron.

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Thats exactly what i remembered, i mean, i have a very very good memory, and i remmeber than back in the old lore, titans just went in worlds just to order them…because? we dont know, but they do it, Azeroth was just one world among others they ordered, just the world had old gods on it and it resisted them a bit more.

But yeah, the guy is just a playing small head, ignorant to troll others at this point.

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I’m so glad I didn’t waste my weekend responding to your disingenuous ever-expanding red-herrings and misunderstandings. You have not “answered” anything at all. You keep misconstruing and misrepresenting until you have multiplied the work that somebody has to do to clean up your errors. Some have referred to this elsewhere as the Gish Gallop.

And no, user name Poised… you cannot change the goalposts now. You claimed “of no importance” about a planet where literally all the Titans except Sargeras and Aggramar had physically traveled there specifically to order it and setup protectors, and establish life, and make sure that life would thrive there. You were flat out wrong, and your disingenuousness makes the entirety of your reply of no value in this comment thread at all.

The “it’s just a video game” argument doesn’t really sway me, ever. If I’m going to play a role in a video game, it needs to make “more” sense. And more specifically, when people make false assumptions and accusations against titans by “ONLY” cherry-picking and misunderstanding a quote by Algalon that doesn’t mean what they think it means…then it’s like I’m Juror number 12 in the classic movie 12 angry men. And I have enough reasonable doubt since none of their witnesses hold water; to conclude I will vote not guilty on the Titans. Not guilty until proven innocent, and there isn’t anything that proves villain status on Titans (excluding Sargeras) yet.

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Titans were neutral good
They were never associated with law that I can remember or the Light either
They were like Greek gods who tinkered around on planets

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The titans are the most evil beings in existence. They installed a omnicide switch into Azeroth after installing other equipment to force her evolution into a form they desire.

Prove me wrong.

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I’ve never see any use by Metzen of your d&d neutral good yada yada system… no matter how much inspiration Metzen got out of that franchise. As for the Titans using Light, they did it all the time. From Tyr to Maiden of Virtue to Aggramar and Sargeras pre-turn all the way down to Maiden of Vigilance, etc. The reorigination device even uses Light magic, so we still have to give an explanation for that. In addition, if we are all wrong about Beledar being a Light crystal that crashed down from above and the writers want us to take the unreliable narrator claim by Archaedas seriously…then we’ve got to explain how Azeroth already has default Holy Light magic powers.

A gardener finding that 3 out of their 50 planted broccoli plants has been infected by a blight reluctantly deciding they have to dig out those 3 and replant 3 more healthy broccoli plants to protect all the rest of the 47 other broccoli plants will “NEVER” qualify as evil. It makes me not trust you to judge evil ever again.

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Nope.

Unless you’re arguing that gardener also destroys not only all his broccoli, all his cabbage, all his carrots, all his chickens, all his horses and all insects, then you’re just being utterly dishonest.

No gardener would wholesale destroy his entire farm and start fresh, just because three broccoli plants were bad, and that’s what the titans would have done.

You know this and you’re just lying because you’re a titan propagandist.

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You’re being not just dishonest because of your bigotry; you are also pretending not to understand a very simple metaphor. The “garden” would be the entire collection of planets all over the Great Dark Beyond…which supposedly number in the millions upon millions. Those other planets are at risk because of the power which the World Soul inside Azeroth has…if and when it falls to the Void Lords… to not just kill, but mentally torture and sacrifice and never replace all those millions of planets, everywhere, forevermore. The planet Azeroth which the Titans ordered is like just one broccoli plant in that garden. They don’t want it to fail, they don’t want it to suffer. But refusing to act if it is blighted and threatening everything else in the great dark beyond is the exact opposite of moral. Refusing to reoriginate would be evil. Now… since the Titans never asked for the reorigination to happen during the Algalon speech, all of this is neither here nor there.