After RWF, should Mythic Raiding be more approachable?

Mythic is already an unbalanced mess that drives people to cheese with certain comps.

Bring 1 ranged DPS on Mythic Lords of Dread (if you can).
Stack Rogues on Mythic Zul. Doesn’t matter if they’re ungeared alts, just bring 'em.
Stack Boomkins on Mythic Blackhand.
Everybody go Dwarf on Fyrakk.
Stack Paladins for BoPs on (insert fight name here).

Peoples’ knee-jerk opposition to flex Mythic is the fantasy notion that Mythic raiding, in its current form, is some beautifully balanced work of art that will stand for thousands of years, like it’s the frickin’ Pyramids or something. It’s not. It’s already damaged goods, there’s nothing to “preserve” with the strict 20-man requirement.

Let people play the damn game. Open it up to scale like all the other difficulties.

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The solution results in a similar problem as suggested here:

Personally I think the reality is that Mythic Raiding is more like an extra-curricular activity that simply requires a greater level of commitment than the rest of WoW. It’s more like an adult league sport that has a schedule and a fixed team limit. You need subs or alternates for basketball leagues, or darts teams, or dance tournaments or whatever you can imagine.

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Is that much worse compared to current: We don’t want hunters for this fight. Sure two other people are slotted in, just not you.

I think this is a perception problem. Bosses 1-3 have historically been super easy and idk how mythic would put any additional stress on leadership. If you enjoy raiding, keep raiding. Within a week or 2 you’ll be reliably killing 2-3 bosses (or more) and it’s essentially free loot, then you prog whichever fight your on and collect vaults.

The goal of heroic is to get AotC and not getting it feels like failure. Mythic guilds rate themselves on number of boss kills. 3/9 this season, 4/10 next season, etc. CE is a good goal, but it usually takes tiers to get there and a lot of guilds are content with 3/x.

Don’t join a crap guild, then.

Guilds want to play together, with their friends. That’s the whole damn point.

Dropping people to hit mythical break points might be what happens in pugs; it won’t happen in guilds.

(In before “but I was in a really crappy guild that did that!” Yeah. Don’t do that again. Easy fix.)

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Again it’s not the difficulty of early mythic bosses that puts stress on guild leadership. It’s the drama that can come with decisions on who to sit if you have more than 20 for raid night. There are plenty of guilds out there that could kill a few mythic bosses but just choose not to because they don’t want to deal with that drama.

As I posted earlier, that’s the reality of life.

You can’t run a restaurant without employees, but you can’t have every employee working all the time. Someone has to ‘sit.’

You can’t play a weekend softball game with more than the maximum number of players. Someone has to sit.

More importantly, human beings are flakey and easily forced to break commitments, so you need to have backups available.

If those two things weren’t true, a guild would be easy to run, but they are, so it’s not. The only ways to easily reduce the human impact on raiding would, in my opinion, severely erode the integrity of the content and it’s value to this game.

I am willing to accept that perhaps I’m being conservative and afraid of change, but I think the difficulty of maintaining an active roster brings tons of hidden social value, from the bond of sharing a commitment, to the competitive nature of holding your raid spot and all the external benefits like having friends to do keys or other activities with.

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I think this is a perfectly reasonable take. There are pros and cons to the strict 20 man requirement and limitation which I think have been pretty well covered in this thread. Blizzard must feel the pros outweigh the cons. I personally don’t care either way. My guild plans to try some early Mythic bosses if we still have 20 raiding regularly when we get there. We did in S1 but didn’t in S2. S3 TBD. If not none of us will really be that upset.

were a flex size possible, think people would try to aim for max. And we have the same issues.

Can’t really see a 15 man guild (sometimes 20 when people show up.) Or a 20 man guild that is sometimes 25.

Especially if each additional player makes it easier.

Will say, didn’t like guilds benching people in heroic just because it’ll be dead faster.

I think that’s a reaction to the importance of attracting and maintaining players for your roster. The further behind you get the harder it becomes to attract new members.

Yes, because replacing a raider with another teammate hits a lot different than replacing a raider with nothing. You may be benched but at least someone on the team is getting time to shine.

If you think after 100+ pulls in if dropping two people would make the fight 20% easier guilds CE HoF guilds wouldn’t do it you are just an idiot. Like straight up. No other word can be used to describe what is going on in your head.

Ya good guilds won’t do that in HEROIC because 15 core mythic raiders can carry a 30 man team pretty easily and heroic is more about funneling your loot upward anyways so bring on the rats / socials. MYTHIC, however, is about killing bosses. Loot doesn’t matter anymore. Your job as a team is to kill X the the most efficient and fast way as possible to get on to Y prog. If X can be done with 2 healers in a 13 man easier than 4 healers in a 20 for some reason this is 110% what mythic guilds will do.

Cata style raiding had Heroic which is today’s mythic - just renamed.

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I’m not talking about HoF and I don’t know why you’d think I was, if you actually read my post.

(Which of course you didn’t.)

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Yes. SPK stopped raiding tonight. They are an elite guild that is filled with elite players.

The GM cited the fact that the game requires a PhD and every weakaura and macro to complete nowadays and it’s just not fun. That’s the truth.

Stop making the game for 2-6 total guilds. It shouldn’t be a shock that the game’s biggest success also coincided with the game’s most accessible raiding.

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Which time period had accessible raiding?

The parts where you didn’t have to sit players because of their class, or because you needed a class with specific thing (gate, etc).

Pretty much the parts of the game where people were rapidly JOINING, not rapidly LEAVING.

Tindral is a problem at this point. Between the heavy class stack requirements and the serious lack of downtime in the encounter it’s a mix of a high stress high pull count boss, over Christmas when people have other commitments, that requires specific comp, and is very difficult to bring someone into that hasn’t done progress on it yet.

Conceptually it’s a great boss for 20 select people to hammer against for a few weeks and as fight designs go it’s pretty awesome, but not over the holidays.

And that has happened when? Can you name an expansion, a raid even?

Because of how tindral’s mechanics interact you need 7-8 melee DPS (7 is significantly harder than 8), you also still have a hard requirement on the number / amount of cleave damage you need to bring for roots that makes some specs severely undesirable and that screws you over if your roster has multiple of them. Every strat for the fight that has worked also requires a certain number of consistent / reliable root breaks, as well as specs that can break their own roots when the need arises.

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