After RWF, should Mythic Raiding be more approachable?

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

Had an interesting conversation with my guild last night.

We’re breezing through Heroic. AOTC will not be very far off at this rate.

Given how fast we expect to have Heroic on farm, the question has come up. Do we Mythic Raid? Is it worth the stress on the leadership? Is it worth having someone take on a second full time job to make sure we have 23-25 willing, skilled and able Mythic Raiders… with the most critical part of it being 3-5 people willing to ride bench for the inevitable attendance raid boss that claims people in their adult lives from time to time.

Is the extra 5 ilvls really worth it over what we can get in Mythic+ for almost infinitely less effort?

The answer has always been a resounding no and probably will continue to be.

Blizzard has historically tuned Mythic Raiding to be near impossible for anyone but less than 1% of players to complete. They’ve done so much to make it an e-sport that it really cannot be seen in any other light. A laughably bad e-sport that garners very little interest outside of very dedicated WoW retail players, but an e-sport nonetheless.

On the flip side. When we down H Fyrakk, be it next week, week after - maybe even the week after that… that leaves us maybe 1-2 more good months of farming him, then nothing to do for the, what, 6+ months it’s gonna take for the expac?

How do we stop drop off in our guild with nothing realistically achievable or worthwhile to go for?

I’ve always wondered why Mythic Raids don’t have a buff like WOTLK ICC did, that gradually make it just a little easier overtime. You can have a feat of strength or an extra achivement for the sweats who wanna do it “outside of easy kitty mode”… as well as the ability to turn it off to go for it yourself at the hardest setting… but something that makes the next step for Heroic Raiders something that’s realistic given some time and perseverence.

Or maybe it’s finally time to allow Mythic Raiding to have flex options. 15-25 raid members, or something like that.

What do folks think? Should Heroic Raiders find Mythic Raiding more of a natural transition rather than this idea that sends shivers of dread down the spines of folks who lead guilds - or should it remain as this sort of unreachable pinnacle that 99% of players will never interact with beyond maybe the first couple of bosses, but important flexes for those who can?

3 Likes
2

I think the problem is perception vs reality. The perception is like you said it’s

EN would like a word with you about this for starters. The tuning for the fights is actually pretty spot on for I would say the average player it’s mechanics that stump people. Also generally speaking you have whats referred to as the wall boss but everything else before that isn’t all that difficult. This tier the wall boss is the 7th boss so you have plenty of easy 1-30 pull count bosses to kill before reaching it.

This also isn’t that big a deal and fixes itself. “Does this boss drop an upgrade? Do I already have a kill on this boss?”. If the answer is yes then you sit for those that don’t so they can get it and then jump back in when it comes time for prog.

I would say leave mythic raiding alone as is. Its not as scary or troublesome as you think and you may or may not like it but you will never know unless you try.

1 Like
3

the trick with the icc buff making the raid a little easier every week is that blizzard is just letting gear do that naturally nowadays instead of bothering to dedicate a buff to it

otherwise they’re already on the record saying mythic has to stay fixed 20 man to make it easier for them to tune it properly (insert joke and associated rimshot here) and so guilds don’t start going “ok we 19 man this fight and 21 man this other fight specifically because of mechanics breakpoints”

like people don’t like the 20 man requirement because they’d rather raid with fewer, but then you’d just run into the same roster problems eventually with 10 or 15 man mythic

fact of the matter is that it’s practically impossible to keep a healthy bench. i get that. everyone who’s good enough to ride the bench in a solid mythic guild is good enough to actively raid in a slightly less solid mythic guild, and most players at that level would rather actively raid. so you start week 1 with 23 players then week 2 rolls around, 3 people have irl conflicts, and now you’re raiding with 17 because all 3 of your bench players left for different guilds.

flex mythic is a solution that blizzard is unwilling to implement

as far as your guild specifically is concerned, maybe have people push for KSH, or just raid mythic with whatever core you have and pug the rest of the slots.

or just migrate to another game once you’re done with aotc

2 Likes
4

I’d say give it a shot and see how it goes. The first 1-3 bosses tend to be similar in difficulty to end heroic bosses.

Also mythic+ vault now goes to 489 which is the same as mythic Tindral and Fryakk so there is only an item level advantage on a select few rare drops.

2 Likes
5

Mythic raiding is always approachable except under some tiers where it was ridiculous every boss as long as you’re moderately skilled which it looks like your guild is at least.

Yet the general rule is the first 1-3 mythic bosses are the most acceptable and are near equivalent to end heroic bosses. Mid tier mythic bosses are where you usually see the jump in difficulty but typically are usually sub 100 pulls.

As long as you’re not aiming for CE then you can do 1, 2, 3, 4 or whatever number of days you like.

You can still get CE as a 2 day raiding guild for example but that usually requires finesse and considerable commitment as well as skill.

1 Like
6

Fair - I think that’s the question we’re tackling ourselves. We are a 2 day raiding guild. Candidly, I love raiding with this guild as I can say without a shred of shame that I’m probably middle of the pack at best as far as our raiders go - it’s definately the “semi-hardcore vibe” to perfection.

The trouble is, if we did Mythic raiding, we’d all want to do it for keeps… and in the times we’ve tried, we never really get out of the gate due to the attendance boss.

7

The attendance boss is an easily avoidable one. 25 man roster for 1 extra tank, 1 healer and 3 dps. This also helps with bosses where x class is better than y class in terms of healing/tanking. Does that mean you have people on the bench? Yes, how do you have it so benched players don’t get bored and go elsewhere? Simple say you have the first 3 bosses down on farm and are progging the 4th. Then bring your benched players too bosses 1-3 then rotate to core for boss 4. When boss 4 dies and goes on farm then extend the benched to bosses 1-4. You will always find people willing to sit on farm bosses from the core team as don’t need anything from them.

1 Like
8

Don’t they usually make mythic more accessible after the WF race is over? I seem to recall they usually tune down the more problematic elements that cropped up that couldn’t be adjusted mid race.

9

For sure, but my understanding is they overtune it for RWF. For that first week or two, it’s balanced to be a hell of a challenge for the literal best PvE players in the world. Then they bring it back down to earth a little and let gear progression do the rest.

10

The first 6 bosses are on the easier side this patch, at least imo.

Larodar and Nymue start to require more personal responsibility/planning and having to PUG 3-5 different players every week is going to slow progress and potentially burn people out.

The fights will get nerfed more as we move towards 10.2.5, and become easier.

I personally think the biggest wall aside from attendance is that after RWF, or for the remainder of the tier/season, Mythic lockouts restrict any freedom to pug individual bosses. Changing the lockout after rwf or hall of fame closes wouldnt have a negative impact on CE raid groups, and certainly benefit other guilds attempting to dip their toes in.

1 Like
11

I think Tindral and Fyrakk’s instant lose conditions will be a more difficult roadblock to guilds than anything else. You fail to soak a seed or burn one respectively and you just drop dead. That’s never going to go away unless they drastically nerf the damage they do.

12

Only the final two bosses have been like this for the past few tiers, everything else usually falls over due to the enormous amount of ilvl available in the first few weeks due to the crest system. These bosses are tuned for top players to be fighting at 470 at most, you’re getting to them at 480+

13

Id really like Mythic to come down to 15.

14

They’ve been nerfing the last two bosses multiple times already.

15

RWF is only appealing because they do the same bosses we do.

if you make special bosses for RWF, then it’s an entirely different game for them than us.

same reason why the M_ on tourny realm is not popular.

1 Like
16

I think you are of a generation that wants everything with no effort. There are FOUR raid tiers. 2 of which are extremely easy to do, 1 that is slightly challenging, and 1 that is very challenging. Why on earth would we make the one single thing in wow that takes any effort at all easier when it already has 3 other easier versions already???

Like what is the point in having 4 versions of the same damn dungeon if they are all doable by a bunch of dads with 13 kids and 8 full time jobs? At that point just scrap all raiding and make our only option raid finder.

My god.

1 Like
17

Because the version the vast majority of mythic raiders end up killing is a nerfed version anyway?

People don’t seem to understand you have somewhere between 1500-2000 guilds(roughly, depending on subscription numbers), clearing Mythic raid content, that makes up maybe 2-3% of the WoW population, then of those guilds, you have MAYBE 10-20% of THAT number ACTUALLY progress and kill the bosses before nerfs roll out.

I get people want challenging content, but let’s not delude ourselves that the all the mythic raiding guilds are killing the same boss that dies in Race to World First, or even Race to World 2-200. The only difference is how long it takes Blizzard to actually make the boss the difficulty the rest of us kill it at.

2 Likes
18

They should delete mythic raiding and just have normal and heroic at this point. Go back to Cata style raiding. Buff normal to feel relevant again and buff heroic to be a bit harder.

RWF is a huge joke and is pretty boring to watch when the same teams always do the same stuff. As it is a source of income they ( blizz and rwf players who milk it for views / money ) wont give it up freely though.

19

So what you’re trying to say is mythic is already easy enough and doesn’t need to be reduced. Sounds like we agree.

20

I agree with you. This is not a good design for sustainability.

1 difficulty is so easy, we don’t bother with it.
1 difficulty is so easy, even casuals can get through in 1 week
1 difficulty is a good challenge, but we can get through it in maybe a little over a month.
And 1 difficulty is so hard, we don’t bother with it.

No one’s saying you can’t have your sweat mode duders. All I’m saying is this difficulty spread is suboptimal… and I get why it has to be this way, because they made Mythic+ basically face-roll easy to get all but Mythic Raid gear.

If Heroic was any harder, it wouldn’t be worth it for rewards when Mythic+ exists in its current form.

But it does leave us a bit of an issue, when we down H Fyakk in a week or two and are left wondering what the next logical step is for us? Is it worth it to try Mythic, or should we just all go play different games until War Within prepatch or the next fated season?