Yes kiting is much more simplified in retail, which really takes the reward/satisfaction out of it. Part of what makes it fun is the fact that you need to draw on other elements from your kit/professions to successfully kite while damaging. Think of it like a balancing act between damage, cc and movement. Another thing worth noting is that vanilla hunters have a dead zone where they cannot use ranged attacks. That might be part of the reason why people suggest that “kiting actually matters”, not only is it a skill but it is a necessity for doing damage.
It’s a bit difficult to dive into the specifics of the talent trees, but it’s more than just tweaking one or two talents. As MM you can choose to go into either BM or survival with your left over points, with a bit of variance as to what talents you choose in those trees. On top of this, at high gear levels you can fully talent into survival instead of MM as it scales better with gear. For pvp the options are much more open, with options that would fit with your desciption of “different” builds (Ex: 50/50 Bm/MM split with intimidation and scatter shot).
To be honest, while I really like the classic hunter tree, it comes down to whether or not you like the old talent system vs new, which I think is an entirely different discussion altogether.
Nell also raises a good point about class identity which is hard to really put into words. Might sound stupid, but the overall kit really makes you feel unique and immersed as your class. For example, I got ganked the other day and ran around the zone using track humanoids and eagle eye until I found the guy that killed me. Sneaking up on the guy mid mob and popping him with an aimed shot from the treeline makes me feel like an actual hunter, where in retail I run at people and pop like 5 offensive cd’s and do my pve rotation.
PS. Sorry for the long post here. Checked back on the forum and found that this topic had over 60+ new replies in it, since I last checked…
As far as pet diversity goes, I agree with the above.
We should have unique aspects such as those.
Granted an example like Lupos might be a bit of a stretch as the upside of that magical damage would be waaay to good to pass up in most cases.
Agreed.
Especially in today’s WoW where the philosophy is to actually cater more towards specific fantasies/themes.
The problem today though, is that LW is being considered as the new “norm” rather than the outlier that is there for a specific fantasy.
We cannot forget that the class in general, is still meant to be a pet class.
If one spec do not promote pet use. Fine. But that spec should be THE one.
Nope it’s not.
They changed that on purpose as…people today are so aware of how good that would be.
I would agree with this.
Pet’s back then weren’t that strong. Period. At least not against a player that knew what they were doing, and with an appropriate level.
Honestly, the few who spoke for melee back then, I would argue did not make a big difference.
I believe it was a decision made by a dev(or a few) who just wanted to find an easy way to add more diversity to the class. With little regards to player preferences(hence why they removed Ranged SV).
Agreed.
The game today tends to be designed more towards encounters providing the more challenging aspects.
That said, the game wasn’t exactly challenging back then either. At least not in PvE. It was more the fact that most people knew less. Used fewer helpful addons etc etc.
Pet Happiness actually makes sense from an RPG-standpoint. But I would agree with the statement that it makes for a bigger annoyance rather than being an interesting addition to the class.
But then again, this is just how I see it.
As evident by the latest addition to the expansion sets.
Although I would argue, considering that we now have Classic. There would be less incentive to bring some stuff back into “retail”.
I agree that some things should be brought back.
Such as some missing abilities.
Distracting Shot
Tranq Shot
And Eyes of the Beast.
But other things in the way they were designed back then. Were to so many people huge annoyances rather than being things that enhanced the experience.
Such as
Pet Happiness
Min-range on weapons
Coupled with the Deadzone
And probably something more as well.
If someone like those things, fair enough. But many of them wouldn’t even work that well in the game today. Many would even “break” the gameplay for us, considering how the game is designed today.
No offense @Naham but…
…that was pretty much the exact impression that I got from you when we had our big discussion regarding past/present versions of ranged Survival. And whether it was unique enough or not.
Basically, you had an opinion regarding the way old SV felt to play and that was all that mattered.
Fair enough, I get why you’re turning against a proposition as so many base it on the condition that the spec you very much like, that being MSV, should be removed in the process.
And as you know, that is something that I do not agree with.
But don’t be against something that could actually make the game better, out of principle. Especially when it can be done without affecting other specs.
This is generally true yes.
By all means, argue about right or wrongs. But once you turn dismissive or rude against others, they will no longer bother.
As can be seen with Naham and his opinion towards the addition of ranged SV.
Fair enough.
But keep in mind that many players do NOT like the Vanilla/Classic approach.
IF they were to bring over a lot from Classic into “retail”, then…where are those of us who did not/do not like it, supposed to go?
Most topics that bring up hot subjects tend to go this way…
I check back on here after the day and find 60+ new replies in this thread alone. Only to see that it’s all basically an argument between a few people.
I would argue that we still are.
But by all means, please elaborate on what type of mechanic(s) you refer to.
The thing is, the intention is not that we should be capable of doing this.
It’s just the result of gear inflation.
From an RPG-standpoint, sure, it makes sense. But is/would be highly impractical in the modern game.
Is indeed a thing. Though, play it well and you still wouldn’t actually gain any benefit from doing that.
Sure, it means you can stay away from an enemy. But it would be the same thing even without a deadzone. Stay away from them and you’re good.
I agree, i some cases.
About Lupos, sorry but no. Why would anyone ever pick a different pet in modern raids if we would have access to something like that?
Unless they would tune his damage output accordingly. But then what would be the purpose?
More RPG elements are fine and all, but retail has a lot of RPG elements that you’re just taking for granted. Classic has a handful more. So what?
Skill cap is a tricky subject. Retail WoW is very easy in terms of world content and very hard in term of endgame content. Dead zone is easy compared to managing ballistas without freezing on mythic Jaina. If you want more skill cap do harder content. The skill cap in retail comes from the encounter.
I want more customization too, but those are all bad examples. A specific pet is better? Then you’re not choosing to take that pet because you like it, you’re taking it because it’s stronger. Power is not customization. Power leads to a single correct choice for each scenario, which means you don’t get to choose anything. That is not what I want in customization. Retail and Classic are both bad at it.
There are a lot of unique things about Hunters aside from “what it brings to a raid” from a utility perspective. Playing my Hunter feels nothing like playing my Shaman. I move differently, I react differently to mechanics, I keep tabs on my pet all the time. I don’t see what identity is missing. When you talk about “bringing a class to a raid” that is balancing, not identity.
In the end, the amount of customization is not very different from retail. Going BM or Surv with your extra points? That’s 3 builds. I bet only one of them is good for raids and another one for pvp. Make it 3 more for each main spec and you get 9. Add a few more by spicing it up a bit. You can do that in retail too. There’s like 5 different builds for each spec, which would make 15. But only 1 or 2 on each spec is optimal. Just because you can’t take a choice of being half MM half BM doesn’t mean that there is an increased amount of customization options.
There are fewer talents in retail, but they are also more meaningful. Overall the level of customization is fairly similar. Classic tree is better for leveling for sure, but you don’t spend a lot of time leveling on retail so there isn’t a need to change it for that purpose.
Retail has a lot of identity, you’re just pretending it doesn’t. Tracking humanoids? That’s still a thing, and it works great on warmode. No other class can do that. I track elementals because Lost Algans drop Manapearls. Eagle Eye? Still there, just less effective to catch people because they fly. The fact that you have a rotation just means you’ve optimized your dps. You can do a rotation in Classic as well. The identity is still there.
The difference in that and Bepples is several fold. One I know that it’s an opinion, not a fact, two is that I am not alone in this opinion. Then we can get into other things but I don’t tell you that you are lying and spreading false information because you disagree.
Some might not like this approach. But it’s there.
This.
<3
Might be true but most times you presented it as being actual facts.
Sure, one could deduce that you were providing your own opinion. But at the same time, from only reading what you wrote at the time, without reading between the lines, it did not appear as an opinion.
At least not to me.
You basically flat out told me that I was wrong for saying that the old SV was objectively playing very different from the old MM.
No problem Ghorak, I always enjoy reading your opinions man.
I still disagree with you on the deadzone though, you capitalize on your opponent not being able to play to it correctly. It gives them outs as an opponent. While giving you the advantage to their poor play.
I’m not campaigning for changes to retail. I’m just saying there are things to be learned from every iteration of the hunter prior to where it’s at in it’s current state.
There are tons of incentives for them to bring back older mechanics into the retail version. At the end of the day, Blizzard exists to make money. The best way to do that, is converting classic players to try retail to increase revenue streams from other in game services they provide.
You’re 1000% right on the gear and money inflation.
But at the same time, you can get this in the modern game as well. It’s really only a matter of how far away you can be from an enemy target.
If there’s an artificial “deadzone” somewhere in there. Why would that matter?
Stay away from the enemy and the end result will be the same = they cannot reach you.
Sure, they do.
Some would estimate that this would cause some players to try “retail” as well, and not just Classic. Which can maybe up the revenue slightly(through services or other shop-related things).
But at the same time, you would have those who detest the Classic approach.
If they have nowhere to go. They will simply quit the game and cancel their subscriptions along with most likely not buying another expansion(or service) until the game changes again.
So…who can tell me which case would give them(Blizz) the highest increase in revenue? We can only guess really…
More RPG elements are fine and all, but retail has a lot of RPG elements that you’re just taking for granted. Classic has a handful more. So what?
So, that’s it? add them in?
I wouldn’t say managing a dead zone is easier than raid content. I value you’re input but I disagree highly here.
A specific pet is better in a certain scenario? I don’t use broken tooth at all so far. I use a boar to assist in kitting mobs by micro managing charge. The customization is there. I just didn’t list EVERY scenario for you.
I think you’re missing the point here. Do you have access to a blood lust variant as a hunter? Why? That was a shaman identity spell.
You haven’t tried any mechanics in modern Mythic level raiding have you?
Anyway, handling a deadzone in PvP is vastly more difficult compared to dealing with it in PvE. True!
In the modern game, it’s pretty much necessary to be able to bring something along those lines.
We already have huge problems with certain classes being “mandatory” while others…less so.
Having said that, in many cases it’s more of a perception problem rather than an actual problem you would face, if you choose to not bring a specific class/spec to the party.
No no no no, I don’t want dead zone in retail. I personally like the dead zone that’s all i’m saying about it.
I don’t want them to implement classic mechanics this continues to be a misconception. I want them to learn from it, the ethos, the flavor of not JUST the classic hunter, all previous iterations of the class.
Revenue would more than just increase slightly if they convert players from classic to retail. We’d have to wait and see.
Keep in mind that many who like the Classic approach, do so partially because it does not provide certain in-game services or shop access.
Also keep in mind that there are many who do not like Classic.
Many would probably quit if changes were made to “retail” so that Classic fans were willing to venture over.
Although that true, if they can convert just 10% of classic players and maintain retail players that would be good. You’re also forgetting each expansion has a price tag associated with it. That alone would lead to a net increase of revenue over BFA.
It’s a balancing act they’ll have to figure out, i’m anticipating blizzcon to see what changes are made. I’d like to give retail a shot.
Probably shouldn’t because a lot of that was language issues plus some other things. I did tell you that you weren’t understanding what I was saying and wrong about that.
We don’t really disagree on RPG elements being good, I just don’t necessarily agree with the specifics. For example, I personally believe that consumable arrows being removed was a good thing, because I didn’t like it back on WoTLK.
Why do you disagree though? You’re so good mythic bosses drop like flies in front of you?
I don’t get your point then. It’s fine that you don’t have to list every scenario. Just use whatever you want to use. That’s what customization is supposed to do. You picked some examples to try to prove that Classic had better customization than retail and I didn’t particularly liked those examples.
That’s a good example, I’ll give you that. Although a button you press once every 10 minutes is hardly gamechanging, it’s true that it was part of the shaman identity, but now mages and hunters have it too, and we can craft drums. I still feel my Hunter being a Hunter though. The homogenization claims are a bit exaggerated.
Yeah I can see people being happy about certain things being taken out, i’d agree here.
I don’t play retail. I’ve played up until cata, I personally like the deadzone. I think it adds a lot to the hunter. Do I want it brought back? No, the game has changed too much to have it added.
Variety and customization- I never claimed it was better. I said retail can learn from classic. I’m not saying one is better than the other. I think that’s why you’re not seeing my point.
Yeah one ability, i’m sure there are a lot of other cases where homogenization occurred that blurred the line between classes. I personally think that’s bad for the game, and shatters class identity.
I just estimated that the changes required for Classic players to want to try out ‘‘retail’’, and play it for long enough to want to buy additional expansions, would most likely drive away too many ‘‘retail’’ players in the process. For it to be worth.
And the cost of dev time for this is implied.
That’s not all that it was but, yeah…
Considering that we would, in todays WoW, consume a substantially higher number of arrows/bullets in a specific timeframe compared to back then(BM+MM), I would agree.
Ghorak thanks so much for you input man. It’s a breath of fresh air on these forums to engage with you, without flaming one another.
I Don’t think anyone can accurately estimate how much change will be required to get a few of the classic players to TRY retail. Only time will tell.
I would think blizzcon will tell us what Un Pruning will take place. They’ll then have to wait till the next expansion to try it, and purchase it.
I think i’m gonna wrap it up here. I said my opinion and defended it enough. I hope to you see you around the forums.
Literally nobody enjoyed the aspect of having the possibility of having your pet running away if you got stuck somewhere without food or the possibility to find any. You can still feed your pet in live if it makes you happy, you just won’t be heavily punished if you forget, or can’t.