i don't get it, what is the point doing this? the story was fine just like it was, people could debate with their perspectives about who was right or wrong, that was why wrathgate was one of the highpoints in the franchise, everything was perfect, the way of the characters acted was perfect, the execution,the cinematic. the event, and the consequences.
well nope, apparently sylvanas is a mastermind who was behind everything, she decieved everyone including the players, WOW, SUCK STRATEGY, SUCH GENIOUS WOW.
such MiLiTaRY GenIuOS
this is absolute garbage.
11/12/2018 05:00 AMPosted by ArlifrexWe’ve known about this for days. Aren’t we confused over whether or not he misspoke about Wrathgate?
The sane part of my mind is right there with you: "We are confused whether he just misspoke."
However, he did say it. I certainly wont argue if a poster says: "Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate!" because that Afrasiabi guy just said she did - Unless they clarify soon, which they wont.
Which means the entire Horde and Alliance are stupid fools. Jaina should have let Varian kill them at Undercity.
This new statement has apparent groundwork in the retcon storm that is Chronicles. The Wrathgate was retconned. Draenosh never died to Arthas - he died to the Plague.
They retconned a cinematic.
With that retcon in mind, it seems likely that it was done to push this new story of: "Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate = Saurfang good."
So while it seems confusing and a slip of the mind/tongue... It could be their new direction. It has retcons to back it.
Sylvanas being compared to Civil War era Tony Stark is pretty accurate so far.
Both orchestrate “morally grey” atrocities in the name of the greater good, both are dragging their respective pro-Regulation/pro-Horde camp down the path of villainy yet again, and both are opposed by a rival morally just faction who are blameless comparered to the Horde/Stark. Oh and both are advocates of dystopia prisons/torture camps in the Negative Zone/UC, where all types of awful !@#$ takes place that too few characters in universe ever calls them out for.
Though that does mean at the end of the expansion Anduin will be assassinated at the gates to Stormwind, and either Baine or Wrathion will become the new High King, honoring his memory and legacy
Both orchestrate “morally grey” atrocities in the name of the greater good, both are dragging their respective pro-Regulation/pro-Horde camp down the path of villainy yet again, and both are opposed by a rival morally just faction who are blameless comparered to the Horde/Stark. Oh and both are advocates of dystopia prisons/torture camps in the Negative Zone/UC, where all types of awful !@#$ takes place that too few characters in universe ever calls them out for.
Though that does mean at the end of the expansion Anduin will be assassinated at the gates to Stormwind, and either Baine or Wrathion will become the new High King, honoring his memory and legacy
11/11/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Hyolia3. 3 left.11/11/2018 09:22 PMPosted by YvenathilmSylvanas has 2 Prime Valkyr left and most likely has been empowering them.
Starting off, 9
One died off the bat, 8
Three died in Silverpine, 5
One died in Andorhal, 4
One dies in Darkshore, 3
Unless I'm missing one, that still leaves her barely weakened from where she was in Cataclysm. Heck, she's probably stronger if she's reainmating Orcs and Night Elves and twisting them to her side. For all intents and purposes, unless that number hits 0, nothing has changed.
yeah that's the right count https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769558581#post-1
No, i refuse to believe this.
didn't blizzard never heard about "if ain't broke don't fix it"?
if sylvanas planned the wrathgate, that means that she had bigger plans.
Then why the HELL she killed herself? that was part of her plan also?
she can see the future? she is the supposed mastermind behind everything?
and this makes both the horde and the alliance look like complete clowns the horde for trusting her and the alliance for the same. (looking at you jaina)
oh wait,i suppose that being killed was also part of grand plan. at this point she probably planned the legion.
i will not accept this.
didn't blizzard never heard about "if ain't broke don't fix it"?
if sylvanas planned the wrathgate, that means that she had bigger plans.
Then why the HELL she killed herself? that was part of her plan also?
she can see the future? she is the supposed mastermind behind everything?
and this makes both the horde and the alliance look like complete clowns the horde for trusting her and the alliance for the same. (looking at you jaina)
oh wait,i suppose that being killed was also part of grand plan. at this point she probably planned the legion.
i will not accept this.
Afrasiabi, wisely, deletes his social media accounts frequently and lets everyone under him suffer for whatever dumb things he says. It's impossible to ask him directly unless you're part of an established platform.11/12/2018 06:07 AMPosted by CursewordsHowever, he did say it. I certainly wont argue if a poster says: "Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate!" because that Afrasiabi guy just said she did - Unless they clarify soon, which they wont.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alex_Afrasiabi
11/12/2018 07:21 AMPosted by EtheldaldNo, i refuse to believe this.
didn't blizzard never heard about "if ain't broke don't fix it"?
if sylvanas planned the wrathgate, that means that she had bigger plans.
Then why the HELL she killed herself? that was part of her plan also?
she can see the future? she is the supposed mastermind behind everything?
and this makes both the horde and the alliance look like complete clowns the horde for trusting her and the alliance for the same. (looking at you jaina)
or wait,i suppose that being killed was also part of grand plan. at this point she probably planned the legion.
i will not accept this.
Guys, guys, seriously i'm not sure how you folks can't see the explanation in front of your face.
Wrathgate happening 'under her orders' doesn't mean she ordered the Wrathgate, it literally means that under her orders the environment that allowed Wrathgate to occur exists, just like the plague and the Forsaken in their current state.
Takes like, five seconds of thought to understand.
11/12/2018 07:31 AMPosted by DarethyWrathgate happening 'under her orders' doesn't mean she ordered the Wrathgate, it literally means that under her orders the environment that allowed Wrathgate to occur exists, just like the plague and the Forsaken in their current state.
i truly hope so, there is no need to change it it would contradict almost everything about her character and most importantly, overall ingame story.
just.. don't even mention it blizz.
Blizzard is NOT dividing the Horde.
Your self created fanfiction where Sylvanas is a moral anti hero is what is dividing the Horde.
Your self created fanfiction where Sylvanas is a moral anti hero is what is dividing the Horde.
11/12/2018 07:40 AMPosted by DalfuraneBlizzard is NOT dividing the Horde.
Your self created fanfiction where Sylvanas is a moral anti hero is what is dividing the Horde.
You're saying this in an interview where Blizzard actually states directly, in no uncertain terms, that they have always been dividing the Horde and that every action she took was with plausible deniability in mind.
11/12/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Darethy11/12/2018 07:40 AMPosted by DalfuraneBlizzard is NOT dividing the Horde.
Your self created fanfiction where Sylvanas is a moral anti hero is what is dividing the Horde.
You're saying this in an interview where Blizzard actually states directly, in no uncertain terms, that they have always been dividing the Horde and that every action she took was with plausible deniability in mind.
How is it their fault you're interpreting "Sylvanas has always been like this" as "They are dividing the Horde"?
11/12/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Dalfurane<span class="truncated">...</span>
You're saying this in an interview where Blizzard actually states directly, in no uncertain terms, that they have always been dividing the Horde and that every action she took was with plausible deniability in mind.
How is it their fault you're interpreting "Sylvanas has always been like this" as "They are dividing the Horde"?
Because they literally state it's always been their fault and they made this deliberately with the idea that one side being outright 'right; was never in the cards, because they viewed it as bad storytelling.
You assume Sylvanas always being a villain is what they mean by 'she's always been like this' while conveniently ignoring everything else they say.
"Any time we get a player base that's divided in their support for a character, I feel like we're doing our jobs. Any time it's one-sided to the point of 'this is clearly the right direction', it's not as interesting."
You cannot actually get more cut and dry then this.
...
How is it their fault you're interpreting "Sylvanas has always been like this" as "They are dividing the Horde"?
Because they literally state it's always been their fault and they made this deliberately with the idea that one side being outright 'right; was never in the cards, because they viewed it as bad storytelling.
You assume Sylvanas always being a villain is what they mean by 'she's always been like this' while conveniently ignoring everything else they say.
"Any time we get a player base that's divided in their support for a character, I feel like we're doing our jobs. Any time it's one-sided to the point of 'this is clearly the right direction', it's not as interesting."
You cannot actually get more cut and dry then this.
Fair enough
11/12/2018 07:59 AMPosted by Dalfurane...
Because they literally state it's always been their fault and they made this deliberately with the idea that one side being outright 'right; was never in the cards, because they viewed it as bad storytelling.
You assume Sylvanas always being a villain is what they mean by 'she's always been like this' while conveniently ignoring everything else they say.
"Any time we get a player base that's divided in their support for a character, I feel like we're doing our jobs. Any time it's one-sided to the point of 'this is clearly the right direction', it's not as interesting."
You cannot actually get more cut and dry then this.
Fair enough
AND FURTHERMORE I-...
Oh wait, you're actually being reasonable? Well !@#$, I was ready to dig in my heels for an hour of ranting.
I guess i'll go make breakfast then.
...
Fair enough
AND FURTHERMORE I-...
Oh wait, you're actually being reasonable? Well !@#$, I was ready to dig in my heels for an hour of ranting.
I guess i'll go make breakfast then.
Well we always have plenty of threads to rant about...(by the way Stormheim was justified)...so have your breakfast and be back!
He likely misspoke, but much like the Aethas bug they decided to leave in the game...after they see how the forums reacted to this, they will probably make it canon.11/12/2018 06:07 AMPosted by CursewordsThe sane part of my mind is right there with you: "We are confused whether he just misspoke."
11/12/2018 07:31 AMPosted by DarethyGuys, guys, seriously i'm not sure how you folks can't see the explanation in front of your face.
Wrathgate happening 'under her orders' doesn't mean she ordered the Wrathgate, it literally means that under her orders the environment that allowed Wrathgate to occur exists, just like the plague and the Forsaken in their current state.
Takes like, five seconds of thought to understand.
You seem enviably optimistic.
I have as much fun mincing and parsing words as the next nerd. But I am not going to strain myself with literary gymnastics to make sense out of Blizzard's writers own lazy words.
First he lays out the context:
"I wrote Sylvanas for 80 years while walking 15 miles uphill in the snow!"
Then he says she ordered the Wrathgate.
I will leave it to Blizz to clarify or not.
11/11/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Ninh11/11/2018 07:36 PMPosted by MannecThe Forsaken should have never been part of the Horde if they didn't want to change, it just caused so much huge internal problems. Internal problems are great, keeps things interesting, but not radically opposed views.
Except the Forsaken didn't change because there wasn't a force on them to change, either within narrative (very few members of the western horde were active in the east, leading to large scale strategic freedom on the Forsaken command) or outside of narrative (since Blizzard never writes about cultures or peoples, they write about characters).
And of course, the goblins literally prove this sentiment wrong because they are also a morally bankrupt race with strong connections to the Horde who care nothing for ideas of honour.
But whatever, blame the Forsaken for Blizzard's weaknesses; not like that doesn't happen every week.
The Goblins are another poor decision made. Their entire point to join the Horde was to give us a jokingly small race that were counter parts to Gnomes. Nothing to do with the Horde's honorable core narrative. Goblins were part of the Horde in WC1 and WC2, but they broke off in WC3 when Thrall took the helm and the goblins became a neutral race. They even helped the Scourge defeat the High Elves in Arthas' campaign in Quel'thalas via zeppelins. Will not be surprised if that will be removed in Reforged. All factions in WC3 can hire goblin sappers, zeppelins, shredders, tinkerers, and alchemists. Goblins were the true neutral race, the Horde just hired them the most when it came to lumber since their shredders were unmatchable, and helped them build Orgrimmar. Even the process of recruiting the Goblins in WoW was poor. Thrall makes Gallywix the leader? The slaver goblin in the process to enslave his goblins? Orcs hate slavery since their escape from the Alliance. But hey the Forsaken have already joined the Horde, what's going to be the problem with adding more oil to the fire?
As for the Forsaken not having some connecting process with Kalimdor's Horde, again that is poor writing and decision making. There should have been a theme for years of at least the Tauren and Forsaken relationships connection growing. The Tauren are what brought the Forsaken into the Horde in the first place. Our Pools of Vision have Forsaken in them to help them out. The Forsaken could have had a bigger narrative than just being Sylvanas' cultist lackeys, and have everything revolve around her. There could have been factions within the Forsaken having different ideals, having process of changing, etc. I miss having the Grimtotem on the Tauren side. It was nice to have a bad faction within our clans, and made us more interesting. Loosing them was a mistake.
Anyway instead the Forsaken take the Tauren in and experiment on them for the Blight. What was done about that? Nothing! Someone on Kalimdor's side should have figured it out at some point, but I guess Sylvanas is a "Super Genius!" Which is another problem with the Forsaken narrative, Sylvanas always outsmarts everyone else because of reasons. The Forsaken are not even smart, they rely too heavily on Sylvanas for basically everything. Every single other race on both sides seem to be hit with the dumb stick because of Sylvanas' "Military Genius." She is not smart, she is ruthless, and ruthless =/= smart. If she was so smart, the Horde would have had a mission to ground the Vindicaar so that it would not nuke the Horde. Instead the Vindicaar is written out to make Sylvanas look smart. If she was so smart, she would have looted Teldrassil out of everything before even the thought of burning it. She would also have rigged Undercity to explode before her battle at Dark Shore in case the Alliance would assault Undercity while the Horde is looting Teldrassil, disguise the Blight as a means for a useful defense even. If she was so smart, she would have put Jaina in the equation with her Battle for Lordaeron plan. If she was so smart, she wouldn't be backstabbed or betrayed all the time. Even now she is dividing up the Horde because of her "Unmatchable Intelligence." Sylvanas brings everyone down because of poor writing decisions just to make her look smart.
Edit: It also makes the Horde really, really stupid for hiring a faction of insane undead, lead by Harley Quinn, and then doing nothing about it. Sort of makes it look like "Oh look we're Horde, we've hired this race discarded from everyone, we're so nice and kind and gud!" While not looking into why they are hated by everyone. After finding out why they are hated by everyone, we still do nothing about it making it only worse.
11/12/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Mannec
Even the process of recruiting the Goblins in WoW was poor. Thrall makes Gallywix the leader? The slaver goblin in the process to enslave his goblins? Orcs hate slavery since their escape from the Alliance. But hey the Forsaken have already joined the Horde, what's going to be the problem with adding more oil to the fire?
Do remember that Varian, Veleera, and Broll Bearmantle were all held as slaves by a member Thrall's horde. By an orc. They were held in Orgrimmar to boot. and none of this was a secret. Slavery was not that much of a problem for them and the slavemaster became an adviser to Thrall.
As for the Forsaken not having some connecting process with Kalimdor's Horde, again that is poor writing and decision making. There should have been a theme for years of at least the Tauren and Forsaken relationships connection growing. The Tauren are what brought the Forsaken into the Horde in the first place. Our Pools of Vision have Forsaken in them to help them out. The Forsaken could have had a bigger narrative than just being Sylvanas' cultist lackeys, and have everything revolve around her. There could have been factions within the Forsaken having different ideals, having process of changing, etc. I miss having the Grimtotem on the Tauren side. It was nice to have a bad faction within our clans, and made us more interesting. Loosing them was a mistake.
Anyway instead the Forsaken take the Tauren in and experiment on them for the Blight. What was done about that? Nothing! Someone on Kalimdor's side should have figured it out at some point, but I guess Sylvanas is a "Super Genius!" Which is another problem with the Forsaken narrative, Sylvanas always outsmarts everyone else because of reasons. The Forsaken are not even smart, they rely too heavily on Sylvanas for basically everything. Every single other race on both sides seem to be hit with the dumb stick because of Sylvanas' "Military Genius." She is not smart, she is ruthless, and ruthless =/= smart. If she was so smart, the Horde would have had a mission to ground the Vindicaar so that it would not nuke the Horde. Instead the Vindicaar is written out to make Sylvanas look smart. If she was so smart, she would have looted Teldrassil out of everything before even the thought of burning it. She would also have rigged Undercity to explode before her battle at Dark Shore in case the Alliance would assault Undercity while the Horde is looting Teldrassil, disguise the Blight as a means for a useful defense even. If she was so smart, she would have put Jaina in the equation with her Battle for Lordaeron plan. If she was so smart, she wouldn't be backstabbed or betrayed all the time. Even now she is dividing up the Horde because of her "Unmatchable Intelligence." Sylvanas brings everyone down because of poor writing decisions just to make her look smart.
Edit: It also makes the Horde really, really stupid for hiring a faction of insane undead, lead by Harley Quinn, and then doing nothing about it. Sort of makes it look like "Oh look we're Horde, we've hired this race discarded from everyone, we're so nice and kind and gud!" While not looking into why they are hated by everyone. After finding out why they are hated by everyone, we still do nothing about it making it only worse.
And their number 2 in leadership was a dreadlord, not a dreadlord in disguise, but a dreadlord openly. Which ended with predictable results.
Once you stop and think about their decisions and actions, the horde leadership doesn't look that great.
11/12/2018 09:37 AMPosted by JuliaDo remember that Varian, Veleera, and Broll Bearmantle were all held as slaves by a member Thrall's horde. By an orc. They were held in Orgrimmar to boot. and none of this was a secret. Slavery was not that much of a problem for them and the slavemaster became an adviser to Thrall.
Ah yes I remember that painful memory now. It felt like whoever was writing it forgot that Orcs absolute hate slavery and would seek to abolish it. Also felt like to give Varian a bigger reason to have even more hatred for the Horde, not that he needed more of a reason in the first place. Being a kid while his kingdom was burnt to the ground, and his father killed and what not. That was later even forgiven in Varian's Heroic Journey quest. Meanwhile Horde was stained by that and are villain batted again during MoP. Commiting to acts it would not have done. I Guess Blizzard's thought process at that point was "In for a penny, in for a pound." And "THAT'S SO METAL!!!" Or "Rule of Cool!"
And their number 2 in leadership was a dreadlord, not a dreadlord in disguise, but a dreadlord openly. Which ended with predictable results.
Once you stop and think about their decisions and actions, the horde leadership doesn't look that great.
Once again proving Sylvanas is ruthless and not smart. Which further leads to bringing the Horde down by not going "Uhhh you going to do something to that DEMON!?" Once again Kalimdor's Horde essentially hating demons. Seriously the Forsaken made way more sense as a third faction, or NPCs taking up the Scarlet Crusade's mantle. Kalimdor's Horde would never have given a thought of letting a Dreadlord into their faction. But it happened for … I'm going with the Rule of Cool but makes no sense reasoning again.