You have yet to show a single piece of evidence of Sylvanas actually caring for her people AS people. That didn’t require you giving her as much benefit of the doubt as possible on those events. Like, holy crapy, Nate literally convinces her to commit to the gathering because he believes it can be used as a tool to reinforce their dependence on her (dealing with her dislike of the Desolate Council fostering limited independence) … and she conveniently only spares those who would most reinforce the very narrative that would do that. And instead you take it not as “She’s reasserting her control over her tools, she’s repeatedly referred to as tools” and “She’s a Motherly Figure who believes she’s doing what’s best for them”.
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Yes, which is reasserting control over them. Like my entire point is that they aren’t mutually exclusive and the desire to aggressively control something does not preclude emotional attachment (in fact, its often borne of it).
I said this like 10 posts ago, girl, cmon.
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You have yet to prove this, beyond giving her the benefit of the doubt. You have yet to tell me why she’s so transparent about her care and love for her siblings and Nate, yet is so insanely opaque and counterintuitive in her supposed love for her People. Its almost like the idea that she didn’t really care about the Forsaken as People is just not a possibility.
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I doubt a “motherly figure” would consider just outright killing all off her children as her first instinct just because they were showing a bit of independence.
Cause that was going to be Sylvanas Initial solution to the desolate council.
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I’ve posted an example of it like 4 times you just don’t respond to it and instead keep spamming the word opaque at me.
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No, you’ve posted several instances with VERY generous interpretations that “could” show she cared if you really twist things; while disregarding the far easier explanation. She was so damned vague about her “care for the Forsaken”, because her Forsaken were tools for her personal use, over people she cared for. They were her Arrows in her Quiver, then her Bulwark Against the Infinite. And their worth was defined by that, which is why she reacted so viscerally to both the Gathering and Desolate Council infringing upon that role. They were valuable tools, so long as they had a purpose, so must be built up … not squandered. But still tools to be used nonetheless. Just like the Horde always was for her up until the moment she bailed.
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You just have a Head cannon that ignores anything that contradicts it. Like Many sylvie fans its easier for you to make up your own narrative rather than the one that blizzard presented.
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“Sylvanas wants to save the Forsaken when she tells Nathanos she wanted to save the Forsaken” is the furthest possible thing from generous or a head-canon it’s just a flat reading of the text.
Why would I provide evidence for a claim I didn’t make lmao
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Lol this is akin to someone pulling out a gun and shooting someone in the head and then lamenting how they couldn’t save them.
You do realise she couldn’t come out and state in front of everyone at the gathering she sees them as nothing but tools right. She had to act it up to keep them on side so she could feed them into the Maw for daddy jailer.
This analogy doesn’t really work since she wasn’t the one sending them to super-hell which is what shes referring to saving them from.
I mean, yet, I guess.
OK, then we agree. She didn’t care for them as people, but as valuable tools. That’s my entire point here. Unlike her sisters and Nate, Sylvanas did not care about her Forsaken as “her people”, and thus did not have some “Matronly” concern over them. It was all about control over her tool, and maintaining their dependence on her and only her. And twice now, once they ceased to be of sufficient use, she abandoned them. While also condemning MANY of them to the very same hell she was so desperate to overturn. Where they were likely processed into soul dust and soul death. Including the Desolate Council she hated so much because they were fringing on giving the Forsaken some independence from her.
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she knew exactly where she was sending all the souls she was killing to, she knew after the broken shore all about the jailers plan. She didn’t care, all she cared about then was serving the Jailer and sending him more souls.
Edit: Funny thing is as well if Sylvanas ever comes back she is probably going to be hanging out with her sisters and probably want nothing to do with the forsaken. She should probably just see them as sycophants that enabled her darker tendency’s that lead to Teldrassil. Hopefully however they leave her in the maw for good as it would only upset people.
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Trying to make a bunch of people immortal seems like a bad tactic if you want to maximize death but what do I know, it’s almost like retroactively declaring that as her goal is completely incoherent because none of it was written with that in mind and attempting to fit it together into something that makes sense is a worthless and impossible endeavor.
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If we take that Sylvanas was knowingly working with the jailer the whole time, then killing people at the gathering would be pointless because the Arbiter wasn’t offline yet; they’d go to their normal afterlives. She doesn’t benefit that way.
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That is because that was never her intention with the Valkyr, it was only to raise a massive undead army to destroy stormwind and the Alliance and send as many souls to the Jailer. Again this is you just ignoring the story because you want everything to frame sylvanas as doing it all for the forsaken.
Her all internal “i was going to save them…” was because she was trying to break the shadowlands cause she felt undeath had robbed her of her afterlife. the felt the other forsaken would be in the same boot but that was all a manipulation of the jailer.
Snipping this part out but aren’t you acknowledging Valko’s point here? Exactly what Sylvanas was doing doesn’t really matter, only the intent being written. Sylvanas thinks she’s trying to save them. That, in her own mind, would make her actions altruistic.
Of course, it doesn’t make it right, but nobody’s trying to say Sylvanas is a mentally well-adjusted person.
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Only in the sense she was thinking that for everyone not for just the forsaken. She actively didn’t care for those she was sending to the Maw any more than the night elves or others dying in the war.
Forsaken players merely interpreted that to meant it was all for them and that sylvanas was going to make them immortal gods with the Valkyr. Again it was all misdirection at the time to hide her true motives.
Hell she seemed to care more about Anduin than any forsaken.
I mean not according to her private conversation with someone who is 100% committed to her and already knows about the Stormwind plan.
Sylvanas lies a lot in various situations but I can’t really fathom a reason to lie here.
You just need to sorta realize a large amount of pre-BFA and early-BFA material alludes to a different motivation/plan that involved a lot more undead-raising and is largely incompatible with the Jailer storyline, because they’re bad at writing. The stuff about making everyone serve her in undeath isn’t some 4D chess, it’s them leaving remnants of a scrapped storyline in the game because the books and comics were too far along in production.
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As a note, we actually NEVER knew what she actually had planned for Eyir. Could infinite Primes be used to improve the quality of life for every Forsaken drastically? Theoretically yes. In fact it would be such an easy excuse despite the shady nature of attacking Eyir, I’m amazed Sylvie never used it. On the other hand, could it have been used to literally raise every Forsaken into a Val’kyr, turning them into literal bound, but far more powerful, slaves? Absolutely that was a possibility. But given the first thing she does as Warchief is a good ol “Sylvie Special” and immediately betrays the Horde PC in Hel, something tells me “infinite far more powerful meat shields” was the more likely choice.
I don’t have the book myself but IIRC, doesn’t she lament to Nathanos in Before the Storm that she wanted to use the valkyr to keep the forsakens’ numbers up because she didn’t want them to die out as a people?
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